Agatha Juma — transcript

She Believes Everyone Has a Story Worth Telling. She Built a Stage for It. Agatha Juma, Engage Kenya

This transcript is generated automatically by YouTube and has not been checked by a person. It misspells names and mishears words, particularly around Kenyan English and company names, so read it as a guide to the conversation rather than a quotable record. Each timestamp opens the video at that moment.

0:01 [Music] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to episode 20. Would you believe 20 of the African Do podcast and today I'm privileged to have I I think you should call her a master storyteller. Yeah. Uh Agatha Juma, founder or co-founder of Engage Kenya Limited. Uh Engage is doing fabulous stuff uh on the storytelling scene. You can check them out on their YouTube page. lots of stories. Uh 10 years old um now. So Agatha, welcome to the African Do podcast. Thank you. Excellent. So let's get straight into it. You Agatha, you had a stellar career. I would say a corporate career. Yeah. You uh started out in tourism space. um went on to be CEO of uh Kenya Tourism Federation and then went into the whole um is it called do we call it the space you know business money with Kepsa and the rest and then you start telling stories so maybe you can

1:10 walk us through what what inspired that and what made you feel that this that's something that you need to do okay so I didn't even start in tourism okay I started selling in a chemist. Okay, if we fancy it up, we call it retail, but really not retail. So when I finished school at 17, the thing I knew for sure is I need to leave Nakuru. Okay. I grew up in Born and raised in Nakuru. No, born in grew up grew up in Nakuru. Yeah. And in Auru then things didn't flow and grow whether had money or you didn't. Yes. So I wanted to come to Nairobi. And after finishing school I stalked my father begged pleaded please get me a job. Anything. Anything. So within a week of finishing school I got a job at his friend's chemist. Okay. And within a week of being there, I realized they have a branch in Nairobi. B. I was made. Oh, really? So, oh, you got the job in Nuru. In Nakuru. Okay. I

2:21 found out they had a branch in Nairobi. Mhm. So, in January, I come to Nairobi, no relatives, but I had a friend in high school who's who had moved to Nairobi with the mom. Okay. So, they hosted me for a while and that was my entry into Nairobi. Mhm. Um, so chemist, then worked in a boutique and then did a course in tours and travel. Then it sounded really fancy. Mhm. Um, and eventually got a job as a receptionist in block hotels. Mhm. So if you know block hotels, you're old. Yeah, I know. I know block hotels well, but it's probably because not because I'm old, but because I'm an industry players, I like to say so I got it is I had a boyfriend um who was living in can't remember where something near high-rise. Yes. and his neighbor worked at Block Hotel. So once I found that out, I was the perfect girlfriend and the perfect girlfriend's neighbor. Yes. So when the receptionist

3:37 went to bury her mom or something, she thought of me cuz I was in her face all the time. It's like, "Okay, um this chick has gone to bury her mom. Would you be available for 2 weeks?" Mhm. At that two weeks was an in. I was the best receptionist ever. Oh wow. And that's at Block Hotel HQ. HQ on Lusaka Road. Lusaka road just near Stium Roundabout. It wasn't even receptionist. It was telephone operator. Okay. I'm sure Jenz's do not know what a telephone operator is. And then that's how I went into um reservations job. Yes. And that's how life started. That's how it started. Okay. That's how it started. Um so when I joined Kenya Tourism Federation um it's during that time that we started engage. Oh wow. Yes. Uh-huh. I was in Toastmasters. Okay. So a friend of mine um Dawn I met Dawn there. We were in another company which folded. In fact how we got into this company Don

4:42 and some other people were had started a company public speaking training. Yeah. And they would get people to come and speak and then give a few tips. Company wasn't doing well. So another friend was a toast master as well, Anthony. And I went to Don and the others and said, "By the way, your company is struggling cuz we're not in it." Yeah. Humble match. Yes. You need our skills. So we joined uh it still failed. Okay. Or ended. Not failed. It ended. But kudos for having the audacity to try. Yeah. Yeah. So then Don and I, there was something that we still liked about this thing. So we got together and said, "How about we try a different way? This storytelling is something that's always fascinated me. I'm curious about people. What makes them tick? Who are you?" you know, underneath the nice jacket with a Nairobi school. Who's the guy behind this story? So, the first one

5:46 was on 14th February 2015. Okay. And it was an experiment. Mhm. Um, so when we were discussing the first one, um, I think it's Don who said or I said, "How about we do something on Valentine's Day?" And we're like okay but who will come Valentine's Day people who love each other do things and then so what you my husband do on Valentine's like dude I've been married to the guy all my adult life of course we don't do anything so like okay let's try and we got five people to share their stories. Do you remember who the five were? Oh yes I do. So there was Dina, God rest her soul in in eternal peace. Um she talked about how she constantly found herself in the friend zone. Like I meet a guy, I like him, he likes me. Yes. We start vi we start vibing. And then a few years down the road, I'm taking him to buy a ring, an engagement ring for his cheek because

6:53 I become one of the guys. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How does that happen? And then Antony spoke about his aunt and uncle who had lived together for 50 60 years. They had eloped or moved away from their home cuz his family didn't like the aunt. Um and they built a home and then this guy died and the aunt was left totally confused. And then the other um memorable one was a girl who was in her 20s. Then she was 2021 in college and she was saying this wing thing that you old people talk about. We don't get it. You just ask slide into your DM. Do we hook up? Yes, hook up. And we were all aged like really really you're not good. You're not taken out on dates. Um but the one that spoke to me the most was Ralph Balmer. Ralph was old then. He's still old now. Yes, I know Ralph. You know Ralph? I know R from Nairobi club bus that one he's an avid swimmer he was like 80 then yes he spoke

8:00 about coming to Kenya during the colonial times he was in the colonial administration but he also spoke about how a man who lives in Kra and they walk in groups in the morning as early as 5 then I don't know if they still do and they go to Inda and wait outside a gate waiting for work yes And at 9 or 10 or 11, they're told and he walks back home. And it is love that gets the wife to make a meal for this man who has brought home nothing. And it is love that gets her to heat water for him to shower even though he's brought nothing. Mhm. And it is love that gets him the next morning to go and try again. Love is hope. Love is sitting there thinking, "Wow, I've not watched that. I'm going to watch it." No, we didn't record it. We didn't record. No, we didn't record the first one. Oh, wow. The first engage was not recorded. Okay. Cuz it wasn't it wasn't

9:09 a thing. We didn't have strategy. You were experimenting. Yeah. It was a storytelling evening. Yeah. And I was sitting there thinking, why is this man mikaing me? Because me, I'm here thinking and I've been with this guy for this long. He no longer does. I'm like, it is love that gets him to go out and try every day without guaranteed results. And it is love that then makes the other party do the things that they do. It's like, ooh. So, there was nothing about romantic love. Deep. Yeah. Very deep. Yeah. What's love got to do with it? And so that remained our theme for every February. All right. Yes. Okay. Okay. What's love got? And and there's been very little romantic love. Oh, I saw her. My heart flood. There's There's never been anything like that. But love in all its forms has come. There's been families. There's It's been incredible. I I I interesting that you do it every

10:07 February because I didn't know my friend who's also been on the podcast Jun Gashu has done one what's love got to do with it which I found hilarious hilarious it was hilarious. Yeah. So go check those out. I think those ones were recorded. So yes. So from the second one is when we recorded because people who came so we we picked the smallest theater we could find in Nairobi. Okay. The Austin room at the Brayburn. Okay. And then between Don and I, we called, begged, pleaded, cajol, blackmailed everyone we know, come to this thing. We also want to show what it is. Come to this thing. Come. Yeah. They were paying. Okay. Um and then Don got some young guys from his church to sing to break in the speaking. And that's how engage was born. Then people said, "Oh, I couldn't come, but I hear it was interesting. Do you have a recording?" We're like, "Oh, we don't have we don't

11:01 have." So the next one we recorded. Excellent. So let's go back. What is it about storytelling that spoke to you to the level? There's one thing about being in Toastmasters and learning how to public speak. But what is it about storytelling that drew you to a level where you say you want to curate it? That I don't just want to tell stories, but I want to capture other people telling their stories in a certain way. What is it that drew you to that? Make it sound very sophisticated. It is. But it is. It wasn't then. Yes. Because what we wanted was to listen to more stories. It wasn't to curate stories. That that came later. Okay. Um, so what was true then and is true now is the stories that have impacted my life. Yes. And anyone else's life is from people we know. Mhm. It's listening to my mother talking with her friends and they're talking about auntie so and

12:12 so or neighbor so and so and how they have done things or listening to my friends as we're discussing how to deal with a thing or struggling with this is how I dealt with it. You're like okay. So we pick lessons from other people's lives. Yes. Either people we know or don't know. Okay. But it's ordinary stories. Mhm. And then and partly true now although that has changed the stories that were given media platforms and prominence uh were clergy and politicians. Yes. Not ordinary folk. Their stories are not fascinating. Just you know tithe and everything will be okay. And I believe in tithing and it doesn't necessarily automatically make everything okay. M politicians telling you to work hard. You're like Yeah. So, we thought, how about to expand our social space? Yes. And have many more people tell us stories. Okay. Stories that are relatable for life. Okay. That was it. That was the first

13:23 one. And then the second one, we themed it life, love, mothers. Mhm. And it was people talking about life. Mhm. And the impact mothers have had on their lives. It was around Mother's Day. And I remember Pala speaking about him breaking up with his mother. Yes. And he said to be a man, you have to break up with your mother. And then my sons were small. I was like, it's coming. You Yeah. And and you have to encourage it because he was talking about how being a writer his mother was constantly trying to find him a job. Even when he was a wellknown a well-known uh columnist, his mother would meet someone and say, "Oh, my my son my son needs a job." Hi. Yeah. He's he's doing this writing thing. Can you help him find a job? Yeah. And I found it fascinating. So it's those stories that we use to enrich our lives that we were curious about and interested in. Okay. So the curating

14:30 came I think after session three or four where we realized all the people we've met have a story but everyone needs help in telling their story not just for to an audience but for the benefit of an audience. So that's when we started the speaker prep process. Okay. Yeah. So Kenya Kenya has this thing where um maybe because of the the our relationship with corporate culture. Yeah. We have this thing where people's jobs are their identity, you know. Um uh we we laugh about with friends that sometimes you go to a place and introduce yourself and someone's waiting for you to say what you do or where you come from, who are you attached to and you say, "No, I'm just me." You know? Yeah. Like then they give you that side. Yeah. And then they're like, "Come on." But but you guys have kind of been different in that the sense that you pick a theme and anyone who is coming on uh on the show um or or on to engage

15:36 speaks about a a specific theme or all the themes are interconnected. What's love got to do with it? You know um the mother's one. So um the question I have is are you intentionally trying to show a humanness to these people because I remember watching the the engaged talk of the former um two former AG professor Gay which was also very interesting and former PS ICT Dr. Demo and none of them were about what you would expect them in a Kenyan context to be about. So I would have thought that Prof would go there and talk about you know the law and but you took him on a totally different tangent and the same with is that intentional? Yeah because who you are is more important than what what you do and and and what you then get attached to. Okay. Um so if Prof had come and spoken about the law, who is he? Who's the guy behind away from the law? Away from the law and and

16:50 I have found that to be a lot more interesting than the snippets we have been fed in the media. So Prof. his law students know him as Maverick and around law. He knows the law very well. I guess people who've gone to his practice um know him as a lawyer and there's those who those of us who know him as an AG know the snippets that media has fed us. True. But rarely do people get to talk about who they are. So engage has grown into a platform where we get to see people and their truth. Yes. And your truth is not necessarily acceptable to everyone. We've had several people come on engage and we have been called and ask how can you bring that guy to engage? You know this guy is like this like this like this. Oh you know the thing that guy said that's not how it happened like that's that's their that's his story. Yeah. Yeah. And everyone has a right to write rewrite

17:55 and tell their own story. It's it's a human right. It should be a human right. Yeah. So you find yourself whether intentionally or not intentionally as a curator of African stories. Yes. Yeah. And uh that is a a unique space because I think one of the challenges on the African continent is we have been rather poor at telling our own stories. Maybe now that you're 10 years in. Yeah. you maybe share with us a bit about how has that journey because you've heard a lot of stories from a lot of Kenyans, a lot of Africans. Yeah. So, how has that what insights have you garnered from listening to all these collective stories for all these different people and what do you what can you share with us about where African storytelling is and where it's going? First, isn't it sad that this is a unique space? Yeah, it's very unfortunate. It's very sad because

18:59 oral storytelling came from here from us. Indeed. Um so the things I have learned is all of us all of us regardless of gender, economic status, background, we are the same person wearing different skin in different size with different amounts of money in our bank accounts or pockets. We all want to feel understood. Yes. You don't have to understand me, but I want you to feel that you're making an effort to understand me. Okay? And we want to be respected. Mhm. That's it. Dignity is important. All the stories are around those two things. This is who I am. I am unique. I have made my strides in this way. Don't put me in a box that I I don't want to be in or that you imagine I should be in. That's it. And what what was the question again? I think the question is what what insights have you gotten? Yeah, you've you've answered and and the insights I have gotten around let's now move to the

20:15 corporate space is that we we lead inauthentically. Yes. Because what we have learned in school, in business school, post-graduate school, undergraduate school about leadership does not consider the fact that we are people. We are means to an end. Mh. Because all those people that we have interacted with, I think if we were allowed or if there was a framework where we could lead people as opposed to leading results. Mhm. Mhm. Workplaces would be a lot less toxic. Yes. Cuz corporate makes people selfish. Okay. In the pursuit of goals. M um and what we call culture, corporate culture in organizations is again a means to an end. Yes. So there's a framework that was developed by professor Marshall Guns um professor in the US that we use in storytelling coaching for speakers and training. There's three aspects to stories. There's a story of self. Story of self is who are you? What are your values?

21:37 What drives you? What gives you joy? And this is around leadership. Yes. And then after story of self is story of us. Who are we as a collective? So there's there's you, then there's Agatha. Let's say we're the finance team of company X. Yes. And you're the FD. Mhm. So then there's you and then there's me who's something. what binds us together. And once we figure out what binds us together from your the story of you and the story of me, that's a story of us. And we begin creating a culture that speaks to the two of us. Yes. Then there's a story of now. Mhm. Regardless of who we are as individuals, what's happening now? So in the moment, we've been hit by tariffs. Mhm. So story of self and story of now of us we need to have the awareness to put it aside or to find a way of shifting and tweaking it so that we deal with the now there's salos to be paid

22:41 ask any entrepreneur around the 25th there's just butterflies over that's a story of now there's money needed now and without this awareness of we're dealing with people who are constantly battling between self, us, and now. Yes. Those business books then become a tick the box that leaves people so exhausted. Yes. At the tail end of their working lives cuz they they don't know who they are anymore. Okay. Yeah. So, you started engage um and as you were telling me before we started recording the podcast, you were employed when you started it, but you've now it's now transitioned into what you do on a day-to-day basis. And um as I was uh asking you earlier, I've seen you also teach you, you know, you also teach people how to speak. So why is it is it because of the proliferation of the internet and access to information and access to communication that we are seeing because

23:47 in the last let's say two decades storytelling has really come center stage. Yeah. In the sense that before you probably had to get a book you know or listen to someone or watch a movie or wait for news or TV and thus they were gatekeepers. But now you know that I guess where I'm going is how do you then take storytelling in in the format that you are using it's not a movie it's not a a a TV show it's it's people standing and talking how do you then turn that into a business a monetizable So we we don't teach people to speak. Yes. And in the teaching we're not asking you to stand up and in front of an audience. That will happen for some people the minority majority never will stand up in front of an audience to speak like publicly but everyone has a circle of influence. Okay. And what we do at the engage uh storytelling masterass is we upskill you or show you

25:07 how to use your experiences. Mhm. Mhm. To influence your circle of influence. Okay. Nobody is here by mistake, by accident. Yes. Um a girl is born with all the eggs she will ever have. Yes. Let's do a biology. Mhm. All All of them like a little girl being born and you know we we say you're you're the sperm that survived. M you are the egg that was born with your mother. M and for all the months that a girl young woman will have her periods she loses many of these eggs. Yes. But and nowadays it's like two or three. Even before our parents time it was like 9 10 of those eggs will become children. Yes. And then a smaller percentage will make it past the age of five and past the age of 10. Leonard, at your age, whatever age you are, young and spritly, um there's experiences you've had that should not be wasted on just you. Okay. The people around you can learn from.

26:21 That's what this podcast is about. Exactly. It is. Yes. So, it's not necessarily standing up. It's how do you use your experiences to tell your children to tell your neighbors to go and speak to your alumni not about you can become an architect or an lawyer or and and there's a place for that but this is how I've navigated life and you can pick lessons from it. Okay. So storytelling is about using your experiences to pour into the world. Yes. and more so for corporate organizations where as a director you you just didn't drop there where did you come from where did you start from I remember we did uh training for some telco and this guy was struggling with his teams cuz they needed to do something with base stations in other places and yes and motivating this team was was not very easy So you have your targets and all but in unpacking this guy's story the leader he had been a

27:34 hooker at some point in India going to sell was it razor blades or something and then when he got into telco he spent several nights in out places where the thing is not working there's deadlines you work and work and work and then you sleep under the thing and you wake up and those stories turned and everything around because people will follow you to the ends of the earth when they know that you feel the thing you're asking them to do is not ridiculous cuz you've been there. Yes. You understand what you're asking of them. You empathize. So when leaders share their experiences, yes, it humanizes the things you're asking of them and they will bend over backwards for you because you become human. You're not just the guy who wears a suit. And is that humanization more authentic? It has to be because people can tell in the context of like Kenya, you know,

28:37 because authenticity is a thing we we struggle with, you know, where the market because it's not smart. When you go to school, you're you're told not to show yourself a lot like just just be sharp, be smart. Yeah. Okay. So, so I was thinking about um a question I asked you and I'm going to ask you again on camera and and say if um funds were not an issue, funding was not an issue. Mhm. What does engage become? I'm I'm dreaming. Yes. Yes. Go ahead and dream. Yeah. So engage our vision is to create curate and create the largest library of African stories and experiences. Um before COVID hit, you know nowadays it's not ADBC, it's before COVID after before COVID hit um our strategy included going into different African countries and then different Kenyan towns. So uh we had done Mombasa, Nakuru, Kisumu. We had done Kala. So we wanted to do East Africa. We had gone to the US

29:58 uh Atlanta and Dallas. So Nigeria was on the plan and there was Ghana. Um and then things happened, money cuz production is it's bloody expensive. Okay. So we posed on on those big plans but engage the storytelling platform should have stories from all all areas of Kenya. We should have stories of and this is of particular interest to me of the older generation. We we're at the the age and stage where we are losing our parents. Yes. And there's a lot of wisdom and a lot of our background and history that's lost once this people have gone. Yes. So capture those stories. Stories of um yeah our parents. Who are we? Where did we come from? Um we talk about we turned out right. We didn't turn out right. But we need to know where we came from. Yes. To believe the things that we believe. I I I would want to hear stories told in Kime, in in Kissi, in Kisahili, in um in

31:19 Luganda in multiple languages, but also stories told across the continent to confirm that we are not just an aid destination and and children with there's usually a kafly that's that I don't know how they manage to put Yeah, that guy. Yeah, that kafly on on the starving child. on the starving child that even people without means, we are a people of dignity. Yeah. And Africans, we are a joyful people. I don't know if you travel out of Nairobi often. And watch um groups of mamas just sitting listening intently to one person and then busting out laughing. Yeah. Yeah. Old men my father's age sitting together whether they're brothers, cousins or just friends and holding each other's hands as they're walking and talking about a land thing or the other. I mean right now seeing men holding hands we all think alphabets. Yeah. Yeah. But we we are a connected people

32:22 to reinforce those stories so that we and the generations to come can begin to claw back that pride. And you know it's interesting you say that and those examples that you give because I love to travel and Kenya is a beautiful place to love to travel because and I say that Kenya is one of the best place to get lost because everywhere I have been all corners of this country you get lost you take the wrong turning but you stop anywhere and you ask someone it's always it's no you know in in in Europe I've also traveled around Europeveled moved around the states, you're a bit you're cautious, you know, will I meet? But here it's a no-brainer regardless of and and this it it rises above a curated narratives which in many cases are false. You know, tribalism and if you're from this and this and it's not the case when you're a guest somewhere. um my grandfather, my

33:23 late grandfather, my maternal grandfather, he told me something that um speaks to what you're saying in when my when my mom was growing up and her siblings, they knew that if the sun set, they would prepare a bed for anyone who was passing their homestead as it got dark, regardless of whether they knew them or not. That was him. And that's a very African thing because you're like, "One day it'll be me walking in the dark." And somewhere, you know, the those days there was no electricity in charge, so there are no street lights. The dark was the dark and it's pitch black dark. So it's like, okay, then and uh he would be like, "Okay." They would, like you said, they would warm water for him to have a bath. You'll be given a place to sleep and uh um in the morning have a cup of tea or something and be be on your way. Yeah. And now I know you you know me and and you go. So

34:28 interesting story related to that. We did a storytelling session for the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. Yes. The guys near Lana. I I knew nothing about them. I just know they have graves for um but we were we we got talking about what they do and one of the storytellers who works there told us a story of his greatgrandparents um this guy's moved from somewhere and then there was open bush bongu um and started a community there. So him and his wife and it is said that they were so wealthy. They started from nothing. Yes. Just vast land. They were so wealthy. They had so many cows that when the the first one was getting into the compound, the last one would be like a kilometer away coming in. M that um they would get so much milk and distribute to the neighbors and all but that they would also dig trenches around the home to pour the extra milk. Mhm. the his greatg grandma was such a

35:42 prolific farmer and these are jango you know now on the mountain side we've we grew up being told these guys don't do anything they're very lazy um had her granaries were always full so people would come and trade grain and give her more cows or come and buy cows and give more grain so it just would feel and anyone who was passing by there was a place where they would sleep and eat to their feel and they would not be asked questions. You're a visitor, it is late, come in, drink milk, not tea, milk, eat. Then the next morning they would ask you, okay, where are you? And then send you off on your way. So yeah, it is a story that was us. Yes. And then Joe beta, the people of war, came and took this guy's son for the second world war. And this man was so broken cuz he pleaded with the recruiters, please do not take my child. Please do not I can give you some workers. I can give you

36:50 three other but don't take my son. Please do not take my son. And it is said that they were insistent on taking the son because those guys were wealthy. So there was plenty of food and there was plenty of work. So food plus work makes a strong man of course. So this guy's son was strong. He was taken and when he was taken that family went down. The mother picked the remaining children. They went to live in somewhere in Maseno. She left the home. She couldn't stand being in that home. And the man spent the rest of his days sitting on his three-legged stool facing the gate waiting for his son to come and they lost all their wealth. For me, it was an incredible story because I've never imagined that our great parents great grandparents had feelings and emotions to that level. that trauma and depression were a thing, were as real as they were. And and that family was

37:56 changed by that incident forever. Wow. Yeah. Wow. And that speaks to the power of storytelling. So when when when let's talk a bit about um how do we deepen how do we re how do we get back this storytelling culture? It's coming back. You can see it engage exists. We were talking earlier about all the people CTA and you know everyone and it's great. I love it because the gatekeepers are fewer and you know it's not pleading to get on media but how do we then take this and h and get an a a tapestry so to speak of the African uh story back in the mainstream. Yeah. Because we we we spoke about monetization of storytelling and it is still easier in the west than it is here. So what does that journey look to make it viable that those who are so driven to tell stories as a way of life can find a way to to to earn a living from doing so. I'm I'm still struggling with that. I haven't cracked it. Okay.

39:16 if if I had I'd be wealthier. Um, and I think that's part of the problem where we believe that everything needs to earn you an income. Okay. For the right reasons. We all need to eat, our children need to go to school. Um and engage has been absolutely fortunate that when we started it and largely even now it is not our bread and butter. Okay. We we have other things that help us be responsible adults. Okay. Which is a blessing but also sad because if we're not dedicating 100% of our time Mhm. of our management effort and time to engage then it will not grow. So if I had cracked it and then maybe we'd be further or maybe we'd not be maybe we'd be chasing the back. Yes. Um so one of the ways I've seen happening is engaging with corporate and and pushing the corporate agenda. Okay. Um, I'm sure before Trump happened, there was many NOS's that were talking about

40:33 malaria and tuberculosis. I I don't know how many tuberculosis stories you can you can tell. Yeah. You can tell while remaining authentic, but if that's what you have to do to earn an income. Okay. Um, because it's it's hard work that doesn't pay much. Okay. Once you you pay your suppliers video um or sound engineers and and we have amazing talent around the country, you've paid the the theater where you're doing it. What's left after get sales is is very little. Okay. So I haven't cracked that. Corporate sponsorship. There's a time you had corporate sponsor. Is that still the case? Yes. There's a time we had corporate sponsorship um from Safariccom and it did so much for us. That's what allowed us to do Mombasa. Yes. It allowed us to do Kisumu and Nakuru. Um and then we we were were going to do a training um on storytelling at Cornell University. So that funded Dallas and Atlanta. Nice.

41:49 But there's not money that has come from the storytelling. So this year we're fortunate Safariccom has come back as a sponsor. So they sponsored us for 3 years and then went quiet. Um they've come back for a year. It it allows for production. Nice. It's not enough money to make a living. Okay. I haven't cracked how to make a living from it. If if you find someone who has, let me know without losing the soul of storytelling. Okay. Cuz we we're kind of adamant about keeping it authentic. Okay. Yeah. Do you feel that you you've um do you feel that you've managed to cut across generations from a relevant perspective? Are are you talking to me who and your peers or are you talking across a broad spectrum? when you look at the demographic of those who uh engage with engage you know how how diverse is that demographic so for the in-person engage which we do every 2 and

42:52 1/2 months I'm talking to you okay uh the people who buy tickets to come and attend um 30 30 to 50 okay upwards on YouTube which is where our largest audience is surprisingly it is 18 to 35. Wow. Yes. That's amazing. Across the globe. So Kenya Kenya is of course the first um the largest viewership and then there's Uganda, Tanzania, UK and US. There's an East African thing going on. It's an East Africa. Yes. Uh Uganda, Tanzania, UK, US, and then Rwanda, I think. Okay. And then there's a big Indian population that's watching. There's some Ghanaians. I'm like, "Oh, wow. Interesting." Yes, that's very interesting. Yeah. So 10 years, you've done this for 10 years. You have seen full spectrum. Uh clearly you've invested time in even learning about storytelling and speaking and all that. So what can you tell us about what you have seen from how it was then and how

43:59 it has progressively moved and where it is now? Um I am seeing a lot more openness in sharing stories and experiences. So the first year we spoke to people we knew. And then as it grew then people started recommending people. Yes. Uh and then we started receiving emails and and calls of people who want to share their stories. And as we speak now, we have a list of over 500 people who've expressed interest. Wow. From different ages who haven't spoken yet. Who haven't spoken yet. Who feel they have a story they want to share. Mhm. And what I tell the ones I get to speak to on phone because there's there's incredible stories waiting to be told is please don't wait for an engage opportunity to share this story. Democratization of media means that social media by there has been the greatest equalizer. Yes. Start telling your story on IG. M it it costs literally nothing forgetting what the

45:15 algorithms have become. But there's a lot more openness to sharing stories. Number two, it's been believed and still is that a good story is gory, sadness, trauma. We trauma and then we love poverty porn. There's many people who I grew up with and I've made myself into something. That's not a story. number one because it's perpetuating this thing of your existence is only valid if you have money. Yeah. Mhm. There's those who are still in poverty. So while people say I want to encourage those who are still but who are you? Did you come out of poverty with a poverty mentality and nastiness? So stories um the most impactful stories are not I was I became it is this is how I wrestled with myself and this is the hero's journey. This is who I have become or I am still in the wrestling. Yes. Of I was once a corporate exec and then I lost my job. That's not a story. That's chronological

46:30 view of your life. But where where are you? What's your soul? What can my 20year-old learn from it as a 50year-old learns from it? The most impactful stories are where I listen to a story. I'm like, I now understand my father better. Or I see what my friend or sister is struggling with from a different perspective. Yes, I knew very little and I still do know very little about mental health. But we've had people come to talk about mental health from their perspective. That's given me a better understanding than I had before. There's a guy who came and said, "Let me explain to you what depression looks like. It looks like uh you wearing wet clothes on a wet bed with a wet blanket." Not dove. Remember those blankets? The the gray? It feels like Yes. Like you have eight of them. Wow. On you. All wet. All wet. And you really want to get up. And every time you lift

47:37 two, someone comes and pours more water. That you really want to get out, but you're sinking. Yeah. But you're not sinking downwards. You're sinking as I'm like, "Oh, wow. I because I come from the old school of thought of just get over yourself. My life is hard. Yeah. So it is Yeah. Who are how do I better understand myself and the people around me? That's what storytelling is. Yes. Yeah. Wow. So this this is this is quite something. The guest before you was John Alan Namu and uh John was there something he he brought out that was quite interesting. He says we have this um conflict uh or dilemma as Kenyans because and it it's the foreign funding dilemma. Yeah. because while we we we need funding to tell stories and it's great for you that you've managed to get some corporate sponsorship that has enabled you. Um I know my struggle is around when you take foreign funding

48:54 what you lose is local context. You know the local context is belittle. So I I I like the fact that in your story you're thinking about wherever I take funding from has to leave us with the authenticity. But wouldn't it be great if you could get a local African philanthropy to be the one that's backing something like Engage? That that would be that would be so incredible. Yeah. Like I I want someone who is not looking for an end. I I keep saying a means to an end. Is not looking for an end. Not agenda driven. Not agenda driven. Who just in it for the joy of storytelling, the joy of listening. And as Africans, we are very giving. Yes, we are very, very giving. But we give to sadness. And trauma. Someone puts up something on X and they're struggling with the someone I saw who had posted with an MGS thing and wow. and people give or we're trying to raise funds for

50:13 something and I'm sure you give I I give to complete strangers but we need to get to the point where we are also giving for joy. Yes. Um and it doesn't have to be a lot of money. True. if we could get a fund, you know, remember like during Mandan or the Gen Z demonstrations, the amount of money that was raised for guys in schools. How about we raised the same 10, 100, a thousand Bob to a fund that supports creatives? Yeah. Creatives. It it it would it would change the game. Yeah. because we need more authentic connection with who we are and there's no money for that and it is it is hard it is expensive. We have very often had to put in our own money into okay a production is coming up an engage is coming up there's no money um or the gate sales don't quite meet it. Yes. So what's the option even during co what's the option do we stall until money comes and once you stall coming

51:28 back is hard true but I also recognize the point of privilege that we come from that we are able to do that there's so many amazing creatives who they need this to be bread and butter not even bread and butter bread and zestester jam wow agatha amazing Amazing amazing conversation. First of all, kudos for taking the plunge and and building what I I think has become the SI unit, if I dare say so myself, of storytelling in an African context. We wish you all the best. Ladies and gentlemen, that was Agatha Juma. The podcast, the the engage can be found on YouTube. Yes. Is it another medium other than YouTube? We're finally after 10 years getting a podcast. So, in a week. Oh, really? The stories on on Spotify. Excellent. You will put the stories up on Spotify also and and other other channels. Will you put up the past ones, the older ones?

52:32 Yes, we'll start with the with the past ones. Yes. Yeah. Nice. So, available on YouTube currently and soon on Spotify. Agatha, thank you very much for a stimulating conversation. Thank you. and we look forward to having you in the future. Maybe in five years if we're still around, we'll talk about or when we still I've been told to be saying when, not if. So, ladies and gentlemen, that was episode 20. We've gotten to 20. Thank you very much for all your support uh through these 20 episodes. You can find us on YouTube and Spotify. And uh we look forward to episode 21. [Music]