Angela Gachui — transcript

AfriCAN Do! Episode 67: Angela Gachui, Founder 3BL Associates & Co-founder Showrunners

This transcript is generated automatically by YouTube and has not been checked by a person. It misspells names and mishears words, particularly around Kenyan English and company names, so read it as a guide to the conversation rather than a quotable record. Each timestamp opens the video at that moment.

0:05 Greetings ladies and gentlemen and welcome to episode 67 of the African Do Podcast. Today we are very privileged to have a good friend, Angela Gashui. We will talk about many things. I've just learned yesterday that she wears multiple entrepreneurial hats. I knew her as a long-standing corporate executive, so it's quite interesting to listen. Looking forward to listening about the journey of that transition and where it's taking her. Angela, welcome to the African Do Podcast.
Thank you.
You're You're the second
You've called me Angela.
Yes. What what
Can you just call me Angie? I feel like I'm in trouble and I'm in school if you call me Angie.
no. I thought you'd say
[laughter]

0:44
I don't know Amboye or something. No, I thought Angie is your comfort zone. Then we'll go with Angie.
Yes, thank you.
You are the first uh You're the first sibling uh to come. Two siblings. Now, I had your sister earlier on and this is the first time the podcast that we're having uh siblings and we look forward to many more in this entrepreneurial family, so welcome.
Thank you.
So Angela, let's start with you as a professional or let's start with you. We'd like to start with where you're coming from.
Okay.
So um where did you grow up um and let's speak a bit about your career, your education and your career and then we'll get into now the nuts and bolts of it.
and bolts. So I was born in Nairobi. Uh and then I grew up in France and then Ivory Coast.

1:35
How did you end up in those diverse
We'll have to ask my parents, but my father was working for an oil company.
Yes.
Uh and so he took all of us. I think I was four when we moved to Paris. Did two two and a half years there, then we moved to Ivory Coast uh in Abidjan. We were there for about four years and then now came back with me being was 11.
This time your dad is expatriate.
my dad is an expatriate, my mom is also an expatriate I guess, but she's tagging along. I'm working for a number of UN bodies and the African Development Bank.
Okay.
So then we moved back here, which is a whole other adjustment. Um went to a school that no longer exists in Limuru called Green Acres. It was a girl's school, probably famously known for its cross country, which we didn't really like running. Um and then after that went to St. Mary's, went to Canada for my undergrad where I studied political science and sociology.

2:31
Okay.
Initially I was going to study HR, which is important for the part of the conversation that is coming. Um so ended up doing sociology and political science, worked in Canada for a year for Mars, the chocolate people, who do many other things.
Yes.
And then came back home. When I came back home, I joined PwC and then it continued.
Join PwC to do what?
To work in their people and culture, it became people and culture. I think it was people and operations at the time, advisory services. So I was doing consulting
Okay.
at a very young age. I don't know I didn't know that I knew what consulting was, but we were working on multiple projects.
Okay.
I'm still in the HR space. And did that for about two two and a half years.

3:17
Okay.
Then I went to join Seven Seas Technologies, still in HR.
This was now Seven Seas was more on a HR ops role. It's not HR advisory.
HR advisory.
Now you're running a HR department in a business.
shock number one because we we give such great advice,
Yes.
but I realized I'd never run a payroll.
Yes.
And guys are there on hey, where is the payroll? And the payroll system at the time was not as automated. So we'd be there with my assistant printing, PDFing and printing payslips. Something we had never done with all of this, you know, very fancy exposure. Um
and so did that HR ops.
Mhm.
And did that until about 2010.
Mhm.
And then I think I would would call the first year a bit of a sabbatical, but that's also when I registered Triple Bottom Line.

4:04
Okay.
Um, but it's very different
Yes.
now than it was then. Then I went to do my masters in New York. I did that in public administration and policy.
Okay.
Came back
Mhm.
to work for Dalberg.
Yes.
It was an advisory firm. So I went back into the consulting space, but not in HR.
Yes.
I went back as a I guess international development consultant.
Mhm.
And then did that just until before COVID. Then COVID.
Mhm.
We just did whatever people did during COVID, which was primarily trying to figure out did I want to do coaching, did I want to do work in diversity, equity and inclusion, which became a very interesting opportunity out of almost nowhere.
Yeah.

4:47
Um, and then have been doing that consistently
Okay.
since COVID.
Before you go there,
Yeah.
maybe you're the right person to ask because of your experiences.
Mhm.
Um, I argue
Yeah.
that the consultancy space, the development space,
Yeah.
Yeah.
could do with more of what you have done. And what I mean by that is
Mhm.
you see that brief comment we that brief discussion we had about PwC moving from advisory into ops.
Mhm.
I feel that a lot of the advisory and the development space, yeah,
are are too academic.
Mhm.
Yeah? And very few have had the experience
Yes.
of working in or running a operation business.
Yes.
Even when and it cuts across, it's not just HR advisory, it's also entrepreneurial funding, you know, so we have we are stuck in a space where people are giving advice for things they've never done. Yeah? And not that the advice is bad. I don't want to sound like I'm saying the advice is bad. I'm saying I'm saying that the advice would be better if it was given from the context of having done.

6:08
Yes.
And many haven't.
Yes.
Yet they're giving advice. Is that a fair statement? Maybe comment a bit about that.
100%.
Yeah.
Um it has its limitations, um which I'm sure we'll explore later because I firmly believe that in order for you to succeed in something, you should have had an opportunity to do that thing. Which which may feel like it's going to limit you to how many things can you do, right? But I remember just before I moved fully into consultancy in in 2020, I was in a in a group of women who are discussing, um you know, how to grow their careers. And we were talking about being a consultant. And I firmly believe that being a consultant requires you to be an expert in something.

6:52
In the doing.
In the thing that you're talking about. And it's not to go and now we could just literally go online, chat GPT or Claude or something, and you can get like 10 points that make you sound like an expert
yeah.
very very easily. But there's something about the doing that allows you to anticipate the things that are not in the textbook, right? So, because you've had the experience, if somebody said, "Okay, um come up with an an an HR ops workflow." You need to know what it actually takes. How long does it actually take to source for candidates?
Mhm.
How long will it take you really to shortlist those candidates? What's What do you expect when people now start looking for reference checks? Have you ever done a reference check? No. But you can advise, as a consultant, I can advise that it's important to do reference checks. But have you really Have you really ever done a reference check? So, I think it's it's critical. Where I think it becomes limiting and probably why people don't want to do it

7:50 is because um it's hard now for me to grow somebody else, to even hire somebody else who's like junior to me in my consulting firm, because they have never done
Mhm.
So, they can't think like me, because how I think in my practice is because of what I have experienced. And so, when I see a client, I'm just like, "Hey, I can tell you it's about to happen around the corner, because that's just That's just what we know."
Mhm.
And I will say specifically on this continent, and maybe I'll just say on in this country, but specifically on this continent,
Yeah.
we don't operate in very clear parameters.
Yes.
And so, you have to really know
Yeah.
um maybe you've just gathered it from from experience, you know? Um what is around the corner? How do I figure out immigration? How do I figure out labor laws? When is it time to push or not to push? What are the things that I can say or I cannot say?

8:45
Yeah.
Um and I think that that's an experience that most people who choose to go into consulting, because it's um it's a natural thing to do when you're trying to figure out whether I want to stay in employment or if I want to be an entrepreneur.
Okay.
Consulting is the easiest thing to set up. You just say, "Hey, I have expertise in or interest in XYZ." And you set up a consultancy, but there's no real uh qualifier. There's no real qualification journey that you have to go through.
Yeah.
And then you just say, "Mwadishi, by the way, I can help you with this thing." And people are like,
Yeah.
So, me I I have a problem
You have a problem
No, I have a problem with uh in my space, my professional space, which is hospitality.

9:23
Yes.
I have a problem with the number of hospitality consultants we have.
They are many.
They are too many, and my argument is not that being consultants is bad, but my argument is we need more hospitality doers.
Yeah.
We need need more restaurant owners who are uh hospitality trained. We need more hotel owners. I actually believe that one of the challenges we have in the Kenyan market with our hospitality sector and why we're not seeing an outward explosion of this immense potential that it has is that most of our people, yeah, uh become consultants to people who now have the capital. And our problem is a different one from yours. Our problem is if you want to become a hospitality entrepreneur,

10:14
you have to have
capital.
Yeah.
Because we are we are in we chose a career we chose careers that are capital intensive.
Yes.
If you want to open a great restaurant, you have to have the money to open the great restaurant. There's no way, yeah, please. You know, it's either you have the money or not. And so most people take, I believe, what is the less challenging. I wouldn't want to say the easier. The less challenging is let me consult for people.
Yes.
But I also see them. I meet them and I find them very frustrated. Because they they meet owners. You know, when you give consultancy advice, that choice of whether that advice is taken or not is the owner. You know, the guy can look and say, "Sawa. Sounds very nice."

11:00
Yeah.
Uh cheers.
Have they paid you for it?
Uh even if they've paid, they can still decide
Yeah.
Uh I hear you, but cheers. I'll I'll do it the way I know, yeah.
And so I hope to see, but it's changing. So I hope in the future we'll see a lot more hospitality. But we digress. Can we come back? And now you're at Dalberg. One would argue that you have seen
Mhm.
You have seen and enjoyed the fruits of co-corporate being. You know, you have a good title, a good salary. You have a masters, you have come back and Dalberg, good reputation, good offices. Now, why come out and and come to the soko?
To the soko? You know, first of all, I wasn't even 100% sure that I was going to the soko.

11:46
Yes.
And this is a question that I I ask in my coaching practice, particularly when people are trying to do this sort of transition.
Yes.
Are you a coach? I mean, are you a an entrepreneur?
Mhm.
Or are you an employee?
Mhm.
Okay? So, me I've I'm a bit
over uh one foot
in, one foot out. One foot in, one foot
So, I like I I even I even enjoyed a season when I had like a fractional role.
Mhm.
Um where I I was an employee, but then also had my consultancy. But the truth of the matter is if you're going to build the consultancy, you have to be available.
True.
Particularly in my space. So, why why leave the the go the velvet I call them velvet handcuffs. They're like this.

12:23
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Why why they're just like this and you're like, "This is so nice." Um I think that when at the the level that I was in at Dalberg for my age, not because I was very old, but because I was older than many people who are at that level.
Mhm.
And that's a whole other conversation. Um I think you get to a sort of self-awareness sooner.
Mhm.
And I was in a role where I was consulting in actual international development. And then because my love, my absolute love is making organizations be better for their people.
Yes.
Ensuring that leaders are more human for their people.
Mhm.
So, I moved into a management role in HR.
At Dalberg.
At Dalberg.
Yes.

13:10
Um I was the Africa talent manager.
Mhm.
And at that level and with that exposure, cuz I was covering all the countries uh that we were in on the continent, there were some key questions I began to ask myself about the experience that uh our staff were having and what I was pitching. Cuz you know you're selling in in when you do recruitment and you do talent management, you're basically pitching an internal brand, an employer brand. And there were some instances that felt a little bit off for me, right? Which I won't go into, but I I confronted myself and I said, "You know, this one is absolutely up to you." Because you can continue selling, you know, Kool-Aid or whatever it is you want to to call it. And it is still a phenomenal It was still a phenomenal organization. But there were a few things here and there and I'm like, "It's not It's not looking like I will be as comfortable doing this for the

14:08 long run." Okay. And so I started to be a little bit discontented. We tried to find a an alternative sort of like role that I could play for a bit. So I did that in a consulting fashion. And then by December I was just like, "Why Why have we been doing this for 6 months?" When 6 months ago I decided that I wanted to try something different. The good thing is I had done my coaching certification. Okay. And so I felt a little bit comfortable. I was like, "This is what I really really want to do. I like helping people unpack, unlock what it is that's holding them back." And I said, "Let me let me deal with that. Let me take a step back from a structure that is out of my control because it's a much bigger structure than me and do something that made me feel Okay. Within my control.

14:53
Okay. And I would assume that on that foundation is when Triple Bottom Line Associates is born.
No, reborn.
Reborn.
It was sitting there. Then you come back 2020 and you're like, "Hey, there was that thing." That You start calling lawyers. Is that company Is that company still there? What do we need to do? Then you find somebody else that registered another version of Triple Bottom Line. You're like, "But it wasn't Associates." So now it's just like, "That's great. We can do this." So I
Yes. Which sits as 3BL, right?
Which sits at 3BL. That's That's how I like to make reference to it.
Excellent.
Um I can talk about what Triple Bottom Line
So, let's We're in it now. We have come. It's working up. So, tell us when it wakes up, what is it?

15:41
So, when it wakes up, it's a billing entity.
Mhm.
Okay? That's all it is.
Something to send [laughter] that that that that the tax-compliant invoice, okay?
Just the invoice. At the beginning, it was just the invoice.
Yes.
Um at the beginning it was a billing entity.
Yes.
So, Triple Bottom Line, the concept is about people, the planet, and profit.
Okay.
Some people talk about purpose, planet, and profit. All we were doing is people. That's That's really all we do.
Okay.
Uh with an ambition and aspiration which is going to take root this year.
say all you were doing is people, what does that mean from an advisory perspective? So, what were you doing about people? So, were you similar to your PWC days?

16:25
No.
Yeah, okay. So, tell us.
Because even when I was transitioning out of Dalberg, I had I had tried very hard to leave the nuts and bolts of HR. The HR community in this city, in this country, is expansive. And to me, there was some value add that I could provide that was different from
Okay.
your regular what I call the employee life cycle, right? The employee life cycle is everything from recruitment to performance management, blah blah blah. And so, I decided I was going to focus on coaching. And I was going to focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Okay.
Okay?
Okay.
Uh
[snorts]
at the time, perfect time. Because that was the time when the US had uh had a DEI crisis. And a lot of NGOs who are operating here started thinking, "Huh, if this is the fire that we're getting in in the north,

17:17
So,
how are we behaving to our counterparts here?
I'll challenge you and say, can you tell us a qualuga muta?
Yeah, what is diversity, equity, and inclusion? Yeah.
[laughter]
So, that we get it, those of us who are not of consultant speak.
Absolutely. So, but I think we have really we have really advanced people in our society. So, in in the in the basic as simple as I can put it, diversity is first of all the appreciation that there's difference and difference is good in an organization, okay? And it's as simple as our fingerprints are not the same. Irrespective of whether we are twins or not, we are different. And if you bring that different perspective, different thoughts, different skills, different capabilities, it's just a cooler place to work and it can help us solve the problems we are trying to solve faster. Equity, not to be confused with equality, equity understands that even if we we were raised exactly the same, our starting points can be different because of various reasons. Education, physical ability, even marital status, what order are you in your family, and now you can, you know,

18:36 project that into society. So, when when people think about equality, they're like, if if Mudachi has a 100,000 and he gets 100,000, but we are not taking into consideration all the things that would make either you or I be starting from a few steps back. So, equity says we might have to give a little bit more so that we are on the same playing field or as close to the same playing field as possible. That one is the most complicated one because now we have to talk about how do you feel about fairness? Is it fair that I give you more? Maybe, maybe not, but is it fair that I was either historically or socially disadvantaged for whatever reason, and now we are supposed to be playing on the same field. Okay?

19:22
Have you seen the cartoon uh of the three guys watching the game?
Yeah.
[clears throat]
I love it. You know, it it captures exactly what you're saying. Where this one is saying this one is equality, this is equity, and yeah.
there's another addition to it where they're like, "Why is there even a fence?"
Aha.
In fact, remove the fence.
So, I think can all just watch the football
just be able to watch the game whether they are short, whether they are tall, whether they are on a box or not. Remove the fence, right? Cuz those are barriers to access.
Okay.
So, equity is highly about access.
Yeah.
Inclusion, which also now got belonging kind of added and infused, is like can you really just be you?

19:59
in the organization
organization? Can you feel like whoever you are, the things you like, the things that make you uniquely you uh are welcome in this space?
Mhm.
That one is even more critical, but it's a much longer game because that's about mindset. I have to undo what has been normal for me, and remember we really operate within groups of familiarity. So, if you're sitting there and you're saying um let me just use one that's is quite present in our conversation in the country now, uh people who live with disability. If you have never been exposed to a person who's living with disability even with your eyes you don't know what it means to not be able to access a staircase. Let's just say somebody with a physical disability who would struggle. How do you begin to think about making them feel comfortable in an organization? And it's not about tolerance, it's like you deserve to be here, and my goal is to make you feel comfortable to do everything you need to do. Right? And so, inclusion goes into mindset, it goes into culture, it goes

21:08 into understanding one another, and being able to confront the fact that maybe I don't actually like you because you're different from me.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay. But you This is not This is you're still doing this as a billing entity.
I'm still doing this as a billing entity.
So, how does it now walk us through How does this transition into the main steel of 3BL?
So, this is when I when I said we were doing the people thing, this is the people thing.
Because now you go into an organization and you say, "See all your people,
Mhm.
we have to have a conversation about DEI. Let's say we take DEI.
Mhm.
Um either because your head office has said this is important, or because your board has understood it's important, or because you as a leader have decided this is important. But now, especially within our context here, we we were invited to explore a concept that looks very different in North America than it looks here. Because here we're not talking about race

22:06
Mhm.
as the first thing.
Yes.
We might be talking about tribe, we might be talking about gender, we're definitely talking now about people living with disabilities, but everything else was about race.
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
And and also sexuality was the other one that was pretty big.
Who going
So, how do you confront those things? So, for me, the work, and I think it was maybe what made it successful, ignore what everybody else is doing. Let's just talk about the fundamentals.
Mhm.
And so, we would literally talk about the fundamentals within each organization and see what does DEI look like for you.
Mhm.
And why is it important for your strategy?
Mhm.

22:42
Which is now where the stuff we were doing at Dalberg and Peter C comes in cuz now I can talk strategy. So, if you're going to try and fix, I don't know, water issues in this country,
Mhm.
why would diversity matter to you?
Okay.
So, then we explore that with the client, right?
So, that's the people component. The coaching is also another people component because you now work with individuals or small teams to say I don't I have goals
Cuz they feed into each other, right?
into each other beautifully, especially after you've done DEI then people like I need to have a conversation about how I can show up differently and that's really a coaching journey, right? Now, I want to talk about what happened 2025.

23:22
Yes.
Yeah? There were some executive orders from a country up
Mhm.
north
Mhm.
west, the big one, that affected a lot of DEI work.
Yes.
A lot of DEI funding.
Mhm.
And even even in the US, it became I mean, almost illegal, yeah, to
To talk about
about it and to invest money in it. But if you do DEI well and you double click, just cuz that's such a consultant thing to say, you double click on the word diversity or inclusion or equity, it really comes down to how people behave in the organization.
Okay.
Yeah? And so this now segues into what I I do mostly now. How it translated is into looking at inclusive leadership, into team dynamics, into culture, into trust within organizations because that's really what it's about.

24:14
Yeah.
The reason I don't want to give you money more money or an equal salary is because I don't I don't think you're worth it and we have to explore that. Where Where does that perspective come from? What is my responsibility as a leader? How do I move this organization forward? So for me, we just stopped labeling it DEI cuz it it's not really about the label, it's about what comes into inclusion, what comes under equity, what actually comes under diversity.
So let me let me pose a question that I will cloak in a challenge.
No, cloak it. Go
Yes. and say that I see or I hear, based on what you're saying,
Yeah.
that context forms a big part of what you do.
It's everything.

25:00
Yeah. So, local context. And I think if I get you right, the the advantage of 3BL is that you're able to take these things which are conceptual from a global perspective, yeah? And you can apply them effectively with an with with bringing in local nuance, yeah? So, that's the opening statement. However,
Yeah.
here's the challenge.
I'm ready.
Yeah. I feel that those tend to be very top-down things in the sense that, like you said, most organizations, yeah, are told by head office do this thing because it has been discussed somewhere else in a room where people like us are few or if they exist, yeah? So, that tends to be the ones who come in and do, yeah? What, if any, is your experience of that in a local entity that has no head office, yeah? That is growing and

26:08 thriving uh locally. Are you finding acceptance to that kind of thinking? Are there local companies that are stretching themselves to that level? And do you think it's important for them to do so? Is the challenge.
So, I find that more and more local registered nationally run organizations are trying to figure out how to do this and whether this is what they need to focus on now.
Okay.
Because when you look at it I don't want to go into Maslow's, but it's a bit of a Maslow's hierarchy of needs conversation. Some of these conversations don't feel mission critical. Okay? So, they're the kind of things that happen when you find there's some there's some money for training and all of that. So, you have to be able to allocate budget and time for this. So, if you're in the process of just trying to figure out

27:06 what is making the wheels turn and keeping the lights on, you might not have the the same what's the word? Drive to now start sprinkling D I I'm literally using the word sprinkle deliberately. And I say don't start if you if you don't start doing D I if you don't have the opportunity to commit to it. The beauty however is everybody knows that leadership matters, team dynamics matter, that being able to get your guys to do what they need to do matters. So, they're happy to do that. People are doing team retreats all over the place and that's a lot. So, then the question is for those of us who are practitioners in the space are you are you just doing a team building or are you infusing the right conversations around culture, team dynamics, leadership and what they need to do? And are you ensuring that it's not only a top-down conversation, even top-down locally, right? But are you

28:05 engaging with staff who for the proverbial quad ground are telling you hey, the experience here is like this because the leadership can tell you a very different experience about their culture. So, in the work that I do and I do some of this in association with other people, we always try and engage with more than just the leadership. So, you want a session, no problem. I want to have four, five conversations with other individuals, managers, possibly somebody who's, you know, not even in management and say talk to me about your culture, talk to me about this event that we're having in August. What would be a good outcome? You know, then you know, now then, starts to come out and then we consolidate that into an experience. Yeah.

28:50
Okay. Okay. Interesting. I I really like this conversation we're having because there's something I've come to believe. And maybe, like I said at the beginning, this is our 67th episode. Yeah. So, when you talk to all these entrepreneurs, um you learn a lot about their businesses and none of
[clears throat]
few of them have been in my line, but majority not. And then, what I've come to learn is we have to sit in that space where we acknowledge that some of what we are saying Yeah. has not been seen successfully where we are.
Yes. Yes.
Yeah? So, and and and I provide for that as you know, it's it's Let me use an example of a business I've come to admire over time, which is Qwetu doing a student accommodation.

29:43
Yeah.
conceptually, you can talk about student accommodation as much as you want, but there's a time it didn't exist in a standardized fashion.
At all.
Students all over the country were staying somewhere. Yeah. And they were that's what they saw and that And when you're pitching that as something that is interesting or that would be great, it's very hard to see it if you've not seen it.
Yes.
Now, I argue the same about some of the things like work that you do. Is that you you you don't yet have companies that you can point to and tell people, "Oh, this is working great there. And this is how doing this thing is translating to commercial success because they did it." So, what tends to happen is in these early days, you'll be not flogging a dead horse, but you'll be paying a pioneering premium.

30:38
Yeah. Especially the bit about the commercial
Connecting it to the commercial.
Because they can tell you because a lot of our clients have done pulse checks.
Mhm.
You know, engagement surveys.
Yes.
And they see the numbers shifting, right?
And so for sure they know
Mhm.
that something is happening.
Yes.
At a minimum, people are happy to have conversations, they are engaging more, they are raising challenges more, they are putting up their hands to participate.
Yeah.
You start to see return clients. You know, you're called back for another session and that's fine.
But people thinks it's so hard to draw the line and make it attributable to your work in the people space

31:20
to a commercial
Mhm.
a profitable shift, right?
And that only happens after after time.
Okay.
But I also think that we need to just agree that there are too many things going on in the ecosystem
Yes.
to be the one walking around with the chest and saying, "By the way, that's 100% my work." It's not, right? Your your your appreciation for not What school did you go to?
Uh uh huh.
Mhm.
Me?
Mhm.
Yeah. Nairobi school.
Come on.
Mhm.
So my appreciation for not hiring from Nairobi school
Yes.
now I'm willing to explore another school that I would never have thought about before.
Fair enough.
Could be the reason why I brought in a certain talent.

31:57
Mhm.
That talent was amazing and then all of a sudden my profits shifted. But maybe if we hadn't had a conversation about unconscious bias
Mhm.
you would never have been open to that.
Fair enough.
Right? But we were not able to draw the line directly. And I have I have reconciled with that. It's okay.
Okay. Okay.
So now let's speak a bit about something that you mentioned earlier where you said that um uh where we aligned and agreed
Yes.
that it helps
Yeah.
to advise when you have achieved expertise.
Yes.
In that context
Yeah.
how does building an organization like 3BL beyond yourself look like?
Hey. Cheers to us.
[laughter]
It looks like Jesus helping me. Um it's so hard. Let me tell you, it is so hard. It is the biggest challenge that I have had, okay? Because I'm not being arrogant, but I cannot uh I cannot duplicate myself.

32:55
clone yourself.
clone myself.
Yeah.
But I will tell you something that I have seen work very well, and this is because number one uh one of my core values is abundance.
Okay.
Okay? Which means there's so much work for us to do. We do not have to do all of it by ourselves.
Fair enough.
And so the associates part of 3BL is the only way we can grow
Okay.
3BL.
Okay.
I surround myself with other individuals who do either what I do
Mhm.
or something slightly different to what I do, but complementary to what I do
Okay.
so that we can together tackle larger uh projects or even when I'm not available they can do it. And so either we bill it under the 3BL umbrella so that even if I'm outsourcing it to somebody else, but it's my client, or they come on board and we do it. That to me is probably the one of the only ways. The other way which could be, should be, might be, who knows, explored in a very short period of time is to sort of package some of

33:58 what is now nice thing, but a little bit more business as usual, right? The vanilla the vanilla implementation that could be available to those who don't have maybe the same amount of money or budget available for for high-cost facilitation, let's say. So if you do it in an e-learning format or, you know, those pre-recorded videos material, then it allows people to access that and then 3BL can grow. But there's no ambition for 3BL to become uh 100, 200, 300, even maybe 15 person organization.
Yeah.
Not under the people side.
Very nice.
Yeah.
Very nice.
And the other side that is being explored, it is possible.
Okay. So then what does looking for work look like?
For who?

34:43
For you? For Three BL? Because now you're not doing something like that's vanilla, you know.
vanilla.
don't don't make a mistake and say, "Hey, Mase, we need to call a diversity and inclusion expert to tell us one or two things."
So this is
Yeah.
This is the biggest branding challenge that I'm facing. You and I had a conversation earlier about about like website and positioning and all of that. So we are we are in a journey right now to try and figure out. Cuz what happens is people call Angie.
Yes.
You know that some you heard Angie did an amazing job at facilitating X or she's a great coach or she's a this that and the other. So you call Angie.
Mhm.
So is it is the brand Angie or is the brand Three BL?

35:29
Okay.
Right? And this is literally the branding conundrum that we are in right now from a profit from a people perspective, the people pillar of triple bottom line. Cuz that's still very very centered on me.
Mhm.
And I've for now I've chosen not to fight the the reality. I get a lot of referrals. Again, in in partnership, there's a lot of work that flows through. And I think also being more intentional, even like this conversation, entrepreneurs, leaders need to have conversations with people like me to just be like, "I'm really trying, but I'm finding it hard and I need to find a way to connect the dots."
Very nice.
Right? And so every engagement is almost like a business development engagement. Um and so the I think the brand that gets pushed more is Angie and Three BL now comes to support. But Three BL line the opportunity to expand into now especially the profit the planet side of things that's around sustainability around circular economy which is some research that we're trying to do right now cuz that's what triple bottom line actually means.

36:40 Track profit and people and be responsible for the environment and so now this is what we are also going to explore.
I see some direct correlation with another friend who was in advisory and was a guest on this podcast. Very similar challenges in different lines and I'll maybe give you something that we've discussed with her at length.
Yes.
I think part of your I think you sit in a very interesting space because of where we are as Africans and the fact that the world as we currently know it yes it's changing has not listened to what we think or need to hear. And so for you who's in this advisory space I think you're unique in the sense that particularly if you have an appreciation for context and nuance which you have shown that you do I think you guys have a greater

37:37 responsibility than most because you're the ones who are helping us build organizations where we see ourselves.
Yeah.
Which is very rare.
Yeah.
As crazy as it sounds it's very rare in an African context.
100%.
Very people very few people have insights that they have taken from their teams in an African context you know very few people build from that most of us cut and paste what we have read from you know Drucker Porter and other other people out there.
And we make reference to them all the time.
yes yet they didn't have you know actual goals every end of the month and saying kijana how are things you know and you need So, there's that lack of enough data, which I I believe organization, but I think

38:29
[sighs]
another challenge. I seem to be throwing you many challenges. I think I think another challenge for you is to also provide for the possibility that you will need to look and court the organizations who can achieve the greatness you see, but can't yet see it. Yeah? Um I have a very good friend who's in private equity, and he he's done a lot of deals in the local market. And I remember one time over lunch asking him, "Boss, you're doing deals in a market where people are saying there there are no deals." And then he said something to me. He says, "Three quarters of the deals I've done didn't know they needed to do the deal before they met me." So, I go and find an old man who's hard built this phenomenal business.

39:23
They tell them.
No, and I walk them through how doing a deal with me will be of value to them.
And then they buy it. They're like, "I'm sold."
some Some do, some don't. But that's how I've done more deals.
And I'll I'll tell you that I think the the the first door that opens that kind of opportunity, which I have seen, is is a coaching door.
Okay.
Okay. Because I've had coaching clients who have come and they're just like, "I don't know what to do because, you know, I've transitioned into a more senior role. We've got a new board. We've just gotten some funding, and now who I was there and who I need to be here is not the same." And through that coaching journey, because again, a lot of this stuff is very is very very personal. They're like, "The only person you can

40:10 talk to." And now it it moves from just coaching individuals to now supporting their organizations, right? So, you start doing work for the organization or for their peers and the referral system works. I think what I really appreciate about what you've said though is about the intentionality of seeking out those people. Um and that's important.
Provide resources for it.
Yeah.
In your strategy.
Thank you, sir. Yes, we'll send you your fee later later for the advice.
[laughter]
Let's You know, I I know you three sisters, yeah? And so, it's very interesting before this we recorded this podcast. I was thinking about you and I think about June and I was like, maybe there's something there because your dad started out having this expert corporate life, yeah? And then later on in life became an entrepreneur an entrepreneur. And I have I don't have any data to back this, just my knowledge of you. I think that has

41:10 rubbed off on you.
Yes.
Because your our sisters, two out of three have gone first in the corporate and then they have come out, yeah?
And technically three out of three.
Okay.
Technically three out of three.
okay, so three out of three. So, let's let's maybe back three BL Associates. Now, me to my surprise, I find out that uh not only are you doing this, but you have an ABY Shara that you are working on with some people called Showrunners.
Correct.
So, let's start with what is Showrunners?
Showrunners We run the show.
Uh-huh.
We run the show.
What does that mean?
It means that uh we bridge the gap between clients and the talent, right? And the talent could be the camera guy.

41:57
Mhm.
It could be [clears throat] the drone flyer.
This is an in in an event space.
in an event space.
Okay.
Okay? The show we are talking about is an event space. So, effectively it is uh production management
Okay.
organization.
Okay.
Um and what we do,
Mhm.
what we are really good at, which comes back to that thing you said about having done it before
Mhm.
is anticipating.
Yes.
We anticipate the thing that is going to mess up
the event.
that event. And either that means mess up what the client expected, not deliver according to client expectations, because you didn't know how to brief
Mhm. You didn't brief properly.
Not because of anything, just that you didn't know the technical terms for it.

42:36
Yes.
And vice versa [clears throat] with our talent, whether it is technical talent or the stage managers or even, you know, the guy who's doing the lights or whatever.
yeah?
We we we don't like calling ourselves event managers.
So what are you?
We are production managers.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so I would hire you when?
You would hire me preferably when you're thinking
Mhm.
about having an event.
Mhm.
Because when we come in later
Yes.
we are now just running, running. Then we start fighting about, "Oh, how many cameras do you need?
So you're like the
Do you need Do you need four people backstage? I'm like, "Do you want the event to run
You're a pro You're You're like a You're like You're like project managers for

43:18
We are like project managers for events.
So you would then, together with the person who's ideated that, you would then hire the event manager.
We could hire the event manager.
If required.
If required.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
If required. I think we think we can do it, too, but we wouldn't necessarily want to.
I like about that is it now provides for the You know, events how events run has changed.
Yes.
And I remember being really frustrated a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, I don't know if you saw that that Larry Madowo thing where he was complaining about
Yes.
the running of an event at KICC.
Yes.
Yeah? And that really saddened me because I know some really, really top event management talent in this market. And so and I hear you now coming in that space, and I'm like, why do we have this in a Kenyan context? Constant conflict with our talent.

44:14
Because
Yeah.
at the wrong time is when you bring in the people who do what we do. Number one. Number two, we underestimate the importance of all of these things happening in the back. It doesn't just happen magically. You bring in talent or speakers or experts to come and do what they are great at doing. But they they don't need to think about is there battery inside this microphone?
But could it not also be
They don't need to think about where which door am I going to be accessing through? Which staircase should I go up for a seamless event to happen? And now when you multiply that orders of magnitude said event that did not go so well, um it becomes even more complicated because you can't assume anything. So, we take the assumption away from you.

45:01
Yeah.
And we help you anticipate it. So, what happens is we end up running the show.
Yes.
Here in the background so that number one, it is an amazing experience. It hits your expectations. Number two, those who are attending have a great experience. Number three, if you allow us, you also have phenomenal documentation of your event, which is another thing that people don't do a great job of. Do you have a reel that talks about all the stuff that you have done? Do you have a digitally well organized set of photos, videos, collateral that you can use, right? So, that's what we do. And I think just to talk about having done something before
Yeah.
both myself and my co-founder have done a lot of work

45:44
Yes.
in this space. Me, I've even been on the said stage. I spent a lot of time on the said stage. So, I know the things as as a person on the stage
Yeah.
that like would really really frustrate me. And so, we anticipate that. She's done a lot of broadcast work as well. And we've done some events here of pretty pretty large size.
Yeah.
Um and yeah, so we just we just put it together.
I would argue that the other thing that is holding us back from fulfilling our full potential in that regard is and this requires some industry-wide introspection is we do have a lot of event farms that have emerged solely to collect a check.
Yes.
And they are not invested in those outcomes that you're defining for us here.

46:35
Yes.
And they got this event.
Yeah.
So there's a bit of a software issue there, yeah? Because like now for those of us who've been hoping and praying for a mice a world-class mice facility, we're all looking forward to Boomers opening. You know, that huge construction of Boomers. But the question that gives me personally sleepless nights about Boomers is software.
Yeah.
Will they get the software right? Because it's one thing to put an edifice that's dedicated to mice conference and a whole another thing to run seamless events.
Yeah.
In my restaurant life, yeah? There's a saying that I like to use because it captures what the market does not see in terms of how the sausage is made. And that saying is very few people understand how much work goes into them having a seamless dining experience.

47:34
Even a good sausage.
Yeah. Or [laughter] when you sit in a restaurant and everything works. You're met well, you're sat well, you know, you're served well, you have a friendly waiter, he recommends great stuff which you enjoy. Very many few Very many people underestimate how much work has gone into that simplicity.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's it's a great opportunity for us because we then may not maybe a great brand opportunity, but it's a great opportunity for our work because we can come across alongside any
Yes.
event event manager. We can come across any, you know, camera the tech provider, any build outfit those who are doing the tenting and the screens and everything cuz that's not what we do. We don't even want to own equipment. That's not what we do. But the feel of that event, I remember we we went to to support another organization's event. And we just walked around and we realized that the space had been used for the last 3 days

48:37 at another conference and you know there was a coffee station somewhere. And milk had just been pouring. So you can imagine 3-day-old milk. And tomorrow you're having some very high-powered people. Our work is to walk and say, "Hey, do you know that this carpet
Mhm.
right next to where you're going to be smelling milk, you know, heads head the head honcho. But the the stage was set, the cameras were working, the screens are working. For us we anticipate every single part of it. That's why we call ourselves show
I love it. I love it because let me tell you what I love about it. I love that you're peddling intellect.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's what we do. We peddle intellect.
Yes, you're peddling your intellect. You've found a way to sell your knowledge and I think that's something that all Africans need to learn.

49:25
And and I think probably the the biggest lesson that I'm learning and the one that I would then offer to anybody in in all the spaces that I operate. Don't overthink this thing.
Mhm.
You you know how to do something because you have done it before. I mean, [snorts] we've been performing for years. And so we know what good sound sounds like.
Mhm.
Right? We know what a rickety stage
Feels like.
Yeah.
So can we just fix it? Yes, we can fix it. So, can I package this thing that I know how to do almost instinctively?
Yes.
And this one is it's a much easier one to train. But almost instinctively, you can just tell people, you know that an MC who's been working for 3 hours talking is going to need some water.

50:07
Yeah.
So, you just have some water on the side there for them. It is insane what it does to their ability to get back on stage and do a good job. And so, that's what we do. So, we do it both behind the stage and we do it behind the camera and we do live streams, we do we do all kinds of things. And it's great fun.
Now, we have packaged these two things, but we have packaged them from how they evolved and how they are. So, maybe let's wrap up by speaking about where they are both going. 3BL and Showrunners, what does the future look like for them in this emerging African context?
So, the first thing is that maybe the next time we speak there will be more
Yes.
because I'm a firm believer in multiple streams of income and multiple streams of impact. Okay?

50:56
It's even biblical.
Mhm.
Ecclesiastes, it says it.
Yes.
You should have seven, maybe eight
Mhm.
cuz the the world is nasty, basically is what it says.
So, if we just focus on 3BL, first of all, we are going to be exploring the planet
Mhm.
component.
Okay.
Continue with the people, for sure, but definitely exploring the planet. There's a lot of not only conversation around sustainability and climate, but I think even just an increased need for this.
Mhm.
Not not because we understand all the mathematics behind it, but there's a lot of power and positioning and leadership perspectives that are needed to actually have sustainable organizations and therefore sustainable economies. Cuz who is having these conversations, who who at the tables is the thing that will determine the decisions that are made. Okay? So, there's an opportunity there that's a little bit more Let me just say related to the circular

51:56 economy space around food waste that we are exploring. And so, you will for Triple Bottom Line, you will start to see a lot more around the environment and sustainability. And on the people side, I would say they're they're more intentional and boldness intentionality and boldness of going out there. We've enjoyed being a little kid sniper over here where people are like, "Who are those guys? We don't know about those guys." And now saying, "No, actually there's evidence that we do great work. We have fun doing the work and we walk alongside leaders and organizations and teams. And we're great at that. So, I think you'll just hear more about us.
Yes.
Um and being a little bit more strategic as to who we are working with.

52:40
Okay.
And funnel approach.
Okay.
Yeah. Uh for Showrunners, I think the best way to put it is we were in uh early stage exploration. We've really only been around for a year as Showrunners. Um individually we've been around for much longer. I think my co-founder calls it like 30 plus years of combined industry experience. Um what we really really want is to have an expansion. The The clients that we've been working with have been on one piece of a can, one piece of work. And we want to become their their permanent go-to people. You're thinking of having an event, don't even think without calling Showrunners. Number one. And so, we have a number of partnerships that we're trying to lock in. And the my plea, because I know you have people in the hospitality space and in the entertainment space that watch and listen to your podcast, please don't suffer. Please don't suffer. There's some things you know need to get done that we can do

53:42 for you. Just call us. We live and wear your t-shirts. have to give We we will just come and help you execute amazing events. And the year that we've been working has allowed us to be maybe a little bit more courageous in the spaces that we want to go to. Yeah? We probably are not ready to even willing to touch, you know, very high-level public Let me just call them public sector kind of events. Because they will have the we'll have a fight about the wrong things. Yeah? We want people who actually committed to having great events. Allow us to partner with you to do that. So, you'll be seeing a lot more of Show Runners. Even our socials are going to be a little bit more lit than they were before. You don't have to suffer. We're here to help you.

54:26
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay. Wow. We're drawing to the end, but I'm feeling like our conversation has just It's like we're we're we're we've entered. So, maybe because I value your opinion in this, maybe let's speak about You you you you see you have the privilege of seeing the continent from unique perspectives because one one of your businesses advisory, that means you work with multiple partners.
Yeah.
And the other one is creating experiences. Yeah? Which then gives you a chance to curate multiple experiences for different customers. For different clients. So,
[snorts]
in your perspective, and then of course you have the hat that you constantly wear in the sense that you're you you born raised here and you grew up here and you you live here, you entertain here, you raise your family here, and so on. So, maybe let's speak a bit about where are we? Yeah? This this I think I think I feel that Africa is in a place where we're asking ourselves a lot of questions, which is very healthy. Yeah.

55:40
But I would be keen to hear from you. Where, in your opinion, are we?
Yeah.
And what is the magnitude of our opportunity in that context?
So, it's very interesting. I I was thinking about this the other day. Um let me just bring it to like a human level before we go continentally. My If I was to pick a tagline for my life and my work, it is unlocking pathways to abundance. Okay? That's it. That's what I do in coaching. That's what I do in facilitation. I'm like, there's something that's blocking you from entering your abundance, and we need to unlock it.
Yes.
And if we all thought about doing our part to unlock just one door, even if it's for somebody else, then now they begin to express their level of abundance. I'm I'm never going to be an electrical engineer, for example. But if I can help an electrical engineer unlock what electrical engineering can be on a larger scale, then he or she just become much more expansive, and then they continue and it continues, right? So,

56:45 one of the things that I believe firmly about the continent, and it's it is spiritual, is that there's something almost like there's a cover. It's a bit of a mesh. Cuz you you think it's open. You can't quite see that there's that there's a cover, but there's actually something that blocks our own individual perspectives about who we are, um down to identity, about what we are able, capable, of doing, and where we must be. So, we play a lot more
opportunity
opportunity
than we should.
And and we've allowed the branding of maybe some individuals who are louder and more prominent in local and global spaces to to spill over to us, right? And now people say as Africans, you know, you have not yet reached your indiscipline, your perspective on excellence, or do you think strategically? But maybe if you went to the north and we saw the number of Africans who somehow

57:51
thrive
somehow are thriving. It really makes me wonder, what is it about this mass, this landmass over here, that is preventing us from doing exactly what we might be doing elsewhere, right? And so for me, it really just comes down to an as an individual, do you understand who you are? Do you understand that you were literally created and empowered even in those hardship moments, they were empowering you for the place where you're supposed to be doing more than you're doing right now. And number three, are you ready to do what it takes to blow off the lid? And the blow off the lid thing, sometimes I think it's
cultural
Sometimes I think it's societal. We we have glorified
Mhm.

58:36
um humble humble postures, right? We frown at what we now think is opulence or when it comes to us, just, you know, slow down. We frown at that, but that's what it's going to take to solve these problems, cuz everybody else is seeing something here. And it's not a new it's not an emerging thing. No, we have been the place for a very very long time. But what we don't do well enough is we don't introspect. And then we don't take that bold step. And finally, we also don't like working together. We like to replicate what the next person is doing. On the market, tomato, tomato, tomato, tomato, tomato.
And there's
Maybe one of you Maybe one of you should make tomato sauce.
Yes.
Right? Sauce the tomatoes, the onions, and the spices.

59:27
Sun-dried tomatoes.
Just sun-dry them. You know, in fact, you dry them. Buy from me, I dry them, we move on like that. So, if we could learn how to work in partnership, just do do your bit, and allow it to work together to expand. There are too many communities that have shown us proof of concept of that. For whatever reason, we are the last to jump on onto that ship. And so, I think that's what's holding not only Kenya back, but I think as a whole, as a continent. If we just pop that lid,
Okay.
we would be we would be in a great place.
Excellent, Angela.
Yes.
Angela, I will want I give you a chance to tell the people where they can [laughter] find you with your multiple hats, you know, of 3 BL. Where can they find you, 3 BL, if if if a corporate executive or an entrepreneur is so inspired to seek you out? Where can they find you? And also on the Showrunners side, where can the people who run events or are thinking of curating events, where can they find you and and speak to you?

1:00:25
Absolutely. So, you can find us at info@3, the number three, blafrica.com. If you're looking for anything to do with coaching, facilitation, leadership, uh that's where you'll find us. And for Showrunners, you can find us on our social media page. We're on Instagram _showrunners_. That's where you'll find us, and I really look forward to hearing from you.
Excellent. So, ladies and gentlemen, that was episode 67 of the African Doer podcast. We appreciate you greatly for sparing the time to listen to us. You can find us on our YouTube page and follow us on TikTok and TikTok and Instagram, and see short clips, which we hope inspire you to go and listen to the long clips. Spare the time, particularly the youth, who sometimes don't want to con- consume long-form content, but if you get so

1:01:19 inspired by the short form, go and listen to the whole podcast. That one hour won't kill you. It might just add great value to your life. So, thank you very much for supporting the African Do podcast and we look forward to having you in the next episode. Asante sana.