Bernard Wagitu — transcript

Was CEO of a Telecom Company. Now He Breeds Kenya's Best Sheep | Bernard Wagitu Amagoh Dorpers Ep 23

This transcript is generated automatically by YouTube and has not been checked by a person. It misspells names and mishears words, particularly around Kenyan English and company names, so read it as a guide to the conversation rather than a quotable record. Each timestamp opens the video at that moment.

0:01 [Music] Greetings ladies and gentlemen and welcome to episode 23 of the African Do podcast. Today we we after the feedback on episode 21 where we had a conversation around agriculture that was largely agriculture forecast and the comments that we saw based on that episode. We stick in the realm of agriculture uh but on a different tangent um and it's my pleasure to have a good friend Bernard Wagu of Argo Dopa Stad. So today we're going to talk about sheep condo Dopa. So Bernard welcome to thank you very much African do podcast. Much much much appreciated. Thank you Leo. Thank you for the invite. Excellent. Yes. So B, let's get started and and um I remember when we first met. Yeah. And I came to visit your your farm out in Katafu. Yes. Which we'll get into in the course of the podcast. But I asked you, how did you find yourself in this journey? And I

1:06 found that to be a very fascinating story. Yeah. So maybe we can have it for the benefit of the audience. So you were employed, correct? Yeah. Yes. And um how do you then find yourself farming sheep from that bedrock of employment? Yes. So uh thank you once more Leo for the invite. Yeah. My my journey into sheep was I must say a long one. Yes. And uh started out in the so-called corporate world where I spent about 18 years. uh mainly of 17 of those good years was spent in the telecommunication sector. Yes. And uh I always had I was brought up with animals. Uh my parents loved keeping animals even in the city. So whenever I had a chance I would always try to sneak up and go back to the farm and just try to do something with animals especially from a breeding point of view. So we started out with rabbits went into dogs. Mhm. And uh mainly into

2:18 dog breeding and we did quite well. Won a few shows in 2009 at the East Africa Kennel Club. Yes. And at around 2010 is when I decided look uh this seems to be something serious for me. Livestock farming. And then we started keeping uh cattle. Mhm. And uh my vision then was to be a breeder of uh sahiwa beef cattle. Yes. And uh but quickly I realized along my journey that one of the main tenants of any business is to be able to have control. Yes. And clearly being employed and trying to run a breeding farm was very difficult. Yes. Because especially when it came to issues of just management of it. And uh I started you know having my ideas in terms of what else can I be able to do that will give me more control. And that's how I ended up with ship because with ship they are very versatile. One you you may not need a lot of space to keep them. Okay. Right now we run uh one

3:21 of our feed lots just sits on a quarter acre. That's 100 by 100 ft. And in it we are able to feed uh 800 sheep. Wow. At any given one time. So quickly I moved into that and uh slowly by slowly gained the experience. It is it's been a journey. Okay. Gained the experience and about 2018 and we started at about 2011. 2018 is when I I decided to take the big jump. Yeah. This thing and uh I need to do it. Yeah. This thing I need to sit on the saddle so to speak. Yes. And uh that's when now moved fully into the farm. Okay. Yes. Excellent. Um, another thing that stuck with me from the first time I met you. Yes. Is I think uh you were telling us about that early journey. Yeah. Yes. And uh if I recall right, you told me a story about how you would um nowadays there's university of YouTube, you know, so you could learn there's a lot you can learn. Yes. But um

4:26 when you um applied the principles you are learning from the various videos you are watching. Yes. You noticed that the weight gain of your animal was not what the YouTube video was was telling you should be despite following uh the instructions to the letter. Yes. And that um brought you into the world of genetics. Yes. So let's talk about genetics. Um, another thing that you mentioned that stuck with me is that good livestock farming is about and let me see if I recall this right. You told me is fundamentally about uh three things. Yeah. Uh one is a choice of genetics. Good genetics. Yeah. Correct. Two uh quality and consistency of feed. Yeah. And lastly, uh good uh vet care. Correct. Yeah. Correct. So maybe you can walk us through um um that initial journey and what your learnings were of genetics that pushed you down this path of doing things right so to speak. Yeah.

5:33 Yes. So uh from the beginning dealing with the breed itself the doper is actually a cross between the doset hundram and what we refer to as the Somali blackhead ship. Mhm. And it was created in the 1930s in South Africa. Yes. As purely a meat breed. Mhm. So clearly if it is a meat breed, what you're looking at is weight gain and growth rate. Mhm. And along the journey, I quickly noticed that our dopers in the farm were taking about 13 months to get to about a weight of about uh 15 kgs. Mhm. uh cacas weight which means that's about 35 uh live weight. Yes. And but when I would go back to my reading materials Yeah. I would notice that for the South Africans for example it was taking them 5 months to get to the same weight to get to the same weight. And that kept me thinking you know and quickly I realized it doesn't matter it's not how much food I pump into this animal. Yes. or how great my management

6:43 can be if I don't correct the genetics. Okay, you know, clearly the genetics we we had then at the farm and I believe it's the case all around the country is was very low apart from the color which was blackhead, white body like the South Africans, everything else was off. Yes. You know the growth rate will never get there. Yes. You know and also at the same time from a commercial perspective we were getting hammered by the offtakers. Mhm. Because they would then penalize you. Yes. Uh because first if you want to get your ship to about 2025 that's an old one. Yes. It needs to take about 5 years at your farm. You mean 2025 cases? Yes. Correct. That's like 5560act live. There you go. And that would take you about four or five years. Yes. Then of course it will affect the meat itself. Yes. The texture, the taste, and they'll penalize you. Yes. So

7:40 quickly we started now trying to make inroads into South Africa. Okay. Trying to find who could we be able to partner with on the other side of the world and try and infuse the genetics, improve what we have and also bring in uh those superior genetics. And our journey now into South Africa started in 2015. Okay. Okay. And what was that first journey like? You know, so you what I know you say the journey of getting good genetics, but you made a call. You say, "I'm going to South Africa." And I I think before you you purchased, you went a bit and learned a few things. So what do you then say? What do you make a call and say I'm going to get what? Yes. Yes. Now clearly uh uh what we we we got to that point in time was there's this instance of time value of money. Yes. which is very important for any business. Agreed. And we quickly realized we we will just be chasing our

8:40 own tail if we continue doing what we doing. We had perfected it. Yes. But again, you're just chasing your own tail when it comes to the kilos and everything else. And uh that's when we started now the initial journey of trying to you know contact breeders in South Africa. Yes. going through the they have a very detailed list in terms of how they do their farming in South Africa. So if you want to look for a breeder there's a breeder society and they have their registered members there. So that's where our first point of call was. Yes. And once we made contact with with with one gentleman now the late Henry Van Wick that's when we made the decision to uh pay him a visit. Those days were the days of invitation letters. Yes. So he had to write for us an invitation letter. Got the invitation letter and uh took about a week and a half in South Africa. Okay. Yes. So

9:38 that's how our journey started. And I must say when I got there uh I saw sheep. I've never seen Leo in my life. So let let's do a quick comparison for the benefit of the audience cuz you said you are you are you are getting to a year. Yes. uh and 13 months. Yes. And you're hitting 15 15 cas weight which is 30 35 correct live weight. So what did you find down there? Those sheep that you hadn't seen what what kind of numbers like let's say like for like 13 month there what is your average uh wellrun doper farm uh getting to at month 13? Most of the time many of these farmers any sheep that was beyond 13 months was actually kept for breeding. Yes. So that one was not for m. Okay. But what they used to sell for lump or what you call m now was anything between five and 6 months. Okay. You see at 5 and 6 months they had sheep that were over 50 kilos. What? So you you know someone will show you a

10:41 sheep that was about 45 kilos. Yeah. And tell you it's 3 months is still with the mother. You were shocked. You know and I remember showing the breeder my my sheep. You know all of us farmers like carrying our sheep with us on our phone. Yeah. So I showed him my ship and uh he was very kind because the only thing he told me is that they were leggy. He was generous. He had to find a compliment somewhere with his comments. I want a compliment somewhere there. I could see it coming. You know when you see your fellow man for movie spectacles while he's looking at you, you know, he's thinking hard. He's thinking hard, you know. So, you now you now go there and you've learned these huge lessons. Correct. And I think um it's important at this point to just point out to listeners the difference between lamb and mutton. Yes. And that one at least I can answer not a

11:38 farmer but me I'm oft 12 months and below. Yes. Lamb correct. Yeah. Uh above 13 months m correct. Yeah. So usually tenderness h quality of meat. Um great between uh 3 and 12 months. So if you get your animal at that rate that's lamb. If you go uh beyond 12 months, that's Martin. Correct. Yeah. Correct. So now you're in essay, you've seen. Yes. What do you what do you what what call do you make and what do you acquire? So uh so once in essay visited this farm, spent about two to three days just trying to learn, you know, uh what are they feeding? What's the management kind? You know, what are they doing that we are not doing here? picked a lot of lessons on the first trip and made the decision to come back with three Rams. Mhm. And seven seven pregnant youth. Mhm. Uh at least that's what we thought. They were all seven pregnant youth. And that and uh normally the journey then is

12:45 once you buy they have to go into quarantine. Yes. So once you buy them, you identify your tag numbers, they taken into quarantine which can last anything between a month and 2 months. Okay. Because then you look for something we call an import permit which you send to the breeder and he sends it to his state vet. Okay. Uh equivalent to a county vet. Yes. So he sends it to the state vet and the state vet now what does he follows the various protocols that are on the import panel required here? Yes. Yeah. So the test will take a while. Then the ship came back uh I think they arrived here about 3 months later. That's when we got our ship into the country. And from then now it has it was a journey of trying to improve what we already had. Yeah. And also grow our stud. Okay. You know of the pure pedigree ship. So they come you come with 10 animals. Yes. three rams and um seven pregnant youth.

13:48 Okay. Actually, that's an interesting story. That's what we bought. Remember, they were pregnant. Yes. So, by the time they were landing, they were 17. Because they gave birth in quarantine. Exactly. They they gave birth in quarantine. Okay. Okay. Okay. And we had a bit of a tiff with K because your documents is reading. Yes. Yes. But the other smaller guys, there are some smaller guys there. Yeah. So anyway, that's what we arrived with in the farm. And here's a lesson for the farmers because I remember I mentioned that we thought all seven were pregnant. Yes. One came that was not pregnant. Mhm. And we stayed with that ship since 2015. And yes, till 2020. It never gave birth. Till the time it died postco. What happened? And this is something farmers have to accept and it's part of the risks. You may get some sheep that Yes. Don't give birth. True. Yeah. And honestly, I don't

14:49 think the breeder did it knowingly. So I wouldn't I wouldn't say it was part of fraud or anything of that sort. It's just part of life. True. And this is something we always try to teach our fellow farmers here is that you know these are some of the risks. M you know we normally have farmers coming in for we now started providing something called a business case where they would come in we' sit down with them and we do them a business case in terms of you know what are they looking out of this project uh for some of them they will tell you we want to be able to slaughter 50 per month you know others will tell you especially the ladies they will say they are more uh practical and more specific they say I want to make 120,000 a month so now we need to come up with a model with a model that fixes into that. Okay? You see, and many of them you know

15:39 they never think about mortality you see. So they'll say I have 20 EU then the 20 EU become pregnant then they give birth to 20 then I'll stop them and say what about death what about if it dies what about reality and some get shocked you know you know it's like you don't expect yours to die or yours to get sick and stuff like that and this is something we we are teaching farmers that you need to build a model that is comprehensive yes that takes care of life yes you know theft is another big issue, you know. So all these things and then again there there are sheep that give birth to twins and triplets. So maybe a m of one. There's an upside and a downside. It's it'sactly. So those are some of the things that we we learned in the first initial 5 years of our journey. So let's let's interrogate this because it's a great thing to build on. Yeah. So you

16:34 learned here with your supposed to be 10 but now 17 animals. Correct. Yeah. Correct. And they are on your farm. Yes. Yeah. So, um but you had a So, what did they find of your your sheep? What was there? What was your Kenyan stock that you were you were sitting on? My my my Kenyan stock then was about in terms of numbers. Yes. In terms of numbers then we are sitting at about 480 ship. Yes. Or so. So, your local Yeah. local Kenyan all. Yeah. All of them. So, now this this this h um guys that you have brought the three the three guys. Yeah. There you now you now start a journey of m a mounting program you know and and so on. So walk us a bit through that. How was that journey? Yeah, that journey was was I can say for the first one one and a half years it was filled with a lot of you know ups and downs and why uh once you know being Kenyan yes you

17:38 never run away from that being Kenyan first once the rams landed I put them to work immediately yeah yeah king and what the biggest mistake I made was was the ratio so we put them in it was a one-year-old drum and I put him in with to use. M. So at the end of that breeding season, normally our breeding season is 35 days. Yes. Okay. And why we say 35 days is because an EU comes on extra cycle on heat every 17 days. Okay. Okay. So once he did the first round, we thought ah he he's done his job. Okay. And took him out. But immediately after 3 months, we noticed not everybody is pregnant. Is pregnant. Yeah. You know, and thank God for that relationship made with the guys back in South Africa. So I called Henry and I said, "Look, this is a struggle I'm having." So he asked me, "What was your ratio?" And I said, "I put some 80." Another guy gave 85, you

18:38 know. Yeah. Cuz I was, you know, so one RAM you were giving to service 80 use. Yes. Yeah. And he quickly said, "Oh my god, no, no, no, no. The wrong way. slowly take care of those boysh you know and uh now the next round what we did now was to follow his instructions which were basically one drum at one year old needs to serve 35 years maximum max for 35 days and quickly we could see the difference you know even the boy was happy you were overworking the guy over the The guy the guy felt mistreated. So now he was happy and that has been something that we followed up to date. Yes. Does that ratio change the older the ram becomes or or it sticks or you've stuck to the 35? You know what you do? A ram's productivity life is about 8 years. Okay. Then it starts deep and you can't give it parameters of how many use how many days. Yes. Yes. So at about year 3

19:44 to year 5 that's when your ram is at its optimum. Yeah. At that point it can do 60 70s. Wow. In 35 days. See? Yes. But of course your feeding has to be good. Your care the warming. Yes. Has to be very good. Okay. Yes. Okay. Now let's leave the animals. Yeah. Because we've understood that. We'll come back to them. Yes. But let's talk about management. Yes. and your lessons there in. Yeah. You have h systems, you have routine. Correct. Yeah. Today you came with your breeder, you know, you have a breeder. So you have all this. Um tell us a bit about your lessons of on farm management in a Kenyan context and the opportunities you see therein. Uh what I would say is in our last journey for about 13 years now, there are certain things we've learned. Leo and those ones we call them our critical success factors or the pillars that run our farm. Yes. One is on the genetics that we've just spoken about. Yes.

20:51 Secondly is on feed security. You need to have a plan on food. You know, you need to ask yourself certain questions. Am I going to grow my food? Am I going to buy my food? Or am I going to do both? But you need to have the plan in place. Mhm. And I ideally even before you bring the animals. Yes. You know the third thing is management. Yes. And under management we're talking about you Mhm. as the owner of the farm, the holder of the vision need to be properly uh not only informed but also skilled. Yes. To a level of you being able to meet the desires or the objectives that you've set in your farm. Yes. And that can only happen through training. Okay? There's no other way out of it. You have to get the knowledge. You have to get the knowledge. And then now the second thing is your team. You see, you can your team can only be as good as you.

21:47 Yes. Not the other way around. True. You see? True. And uh that's something we we are very big on at the farm. Uh we try our level best. Uh we hold what we call the Amago conference where we bring farmers from all over the country to come and even beyond. M uh to come for a two-day conference where we bring in industry experts be it in nutritionist be it uh vets be it uh doper inspectors all the way from South Africa just to come and give us the learnings. We also bring in at the end of the commercial side [Music] oft able to tailor our products to their needs at the end of the day. So that's something we are very big on. Uh we hold it at least once a year. Uh we've done it for the last two years and uh it has been received very well. Let let me interrogate that a bit because and and this what I like and probably why I have you on the podcast because I like the

22:54 fact that yes, you're running a commercial farm. Yes. But you're not really commercialminded. Yes. Yeah. In the sense that you're not the first person to farm duper, correct? In in Kenya. Yeah. There are lots of people probably wealthier than you who are farming duper. Yes. But you're the first one I have heard of. Yeah. Who has gone to great lengths. to share your knowledge even the work of the state but you're doing it anyway. Yeah, you're getting on with it and you're doing it but what is driving you down that path? What have you seen that have said I let me dedicate some time and my resources? Yeah, because the way I've seen your your your the conference and I've been following it. We've been talking about it. Yes. It's not really a large for profit venture. It's more like let me bring these guys if I meet my costs. You know what I've spent to bring them and put them up and share that cost with

23:57 other farmers. Great. And everyone will go out and become better. What's driving you down that route? Correct. For us, it's it's more about our long-term agenda. Mhm. which is basically look we need to elevate farmers and this is a kind of knowledge you can't keep to yourself. Yes. It doesn't mean my our rather our candle will go off if we light yours Leo. Yes. And we quickly noticed this very early in our journey because if you become too transactional if you are all about the sale then you'll quickly notice that the farmer is suffering at the end of the day. Yes. And what suffers as a whole is an industry because most of the farmers lack that kind of knowledge. They may have the money to buy the ship. Yes. But most of them you hear asking what next you know what do I do for my young youth for my young lumps you know and that sort of thing. And that's where we saw the gap. Okay. And we decided look uh

24:55 you know for us as we normally say at about a relationship it's not a transaction. Yes. Uh many of the guys who buy from us have been buying from us since 2011. Yes. And it's because of that. Yes. You know, we don't wave at you at the gate and say you bought the ship, you know, forget you. Yeah. You know, you go a friend for yourself. The way that your guy helped you, you know, calling him and he's still talking to you after you bought ship from Exactly. But again, look at it even from a supply point of view. Right now the smallest orders you can get for import or rather sorry export is three tons. Three tons is about 200 ship. Mhm. Smallest. Yes. So how many farmers can be able to do that. Many farmers if you tell him sell 200 sheep he'll close a farm. Sell today close the farm. Done. So what we also trying to do is let the farmers embrace skill and encourage them. Yes. You know, and you can only

25:53 encourage that through information. Yes. You know, empowering you with information. Yeah. Because if you can't take care of three, you're not going to try to take care of 100. True. You see, so upskilling is important. Upskilling is so important. So it's basically, if I get you right, your thinking is if I share my knowledge and we grow together, we are stronger as a unit. Correct. Or as an ecosystem. Correct. If the ecosystem thrive then us as the constituent bodies in the ecosystem will all be thriving. There you go. Excellent. There you go. And we'll be able to negotiate better. Be it with government, they'll be better with government and also from an export point of view be able to negotiate much better prices and and I dare say yes from a local consumption. Yes. Because that's my space. Yeah. And I can tell you one of the challenges we have in the

26:46 restaurant space and when you compare the restaurant industry in South Africa versus Kenya, one of the challenges we have is consistency of supply. You're right. Actually, my personal interest in this space is because of seeing the challenges from the front. Yes. You know, you want lamb. Yes. The the guy who comes and has a memorable dining experience in your restaurant. Yes. Let's say he's had a shank or a lamb chop, you know, if he comes next time. Yeah. And and it's slightly tougher, he doesn't care. Yes. Him is like, "Ah, those guys, they started to joke, man. I went there, I had a fabulous lamb chop. Now the other day I went a hard thing like you can't believe." And yet it is not the force fault of the restaurant guy. He's not changed his recipe. He's not changed how he's executing. But the supply chain at the back is not you're right having the ability and I think

27:44 that's why we need to do what you're doing. Yes. Um when was it we had a drought? Two years ago. Yes. And I remember talking to you after the drought. Yes. And uh uh you told me that uh boss h that drought has made me think about food security totally different. Correct. And I think at that point you started a journey. You had already started it, but you kind of put the pedal to the metal on it in the sense that you started planting more of your own. Yeah. And then you invested in a portion meal to to to So let's talk about that. Let's talk about feeds. We have talked about genetics. We have talked about management. Let's talk about feeds. Yes. So what has been your experience and what is the opportunity? You you you talked about food security. Yes. How long should you be food secure for your animals, you know, and and let's talk a bit about that and see. Yeah. So, when

28:42 it comes to feed, I mean, it's critical. And uh for us, the way we look at it is to say at the bare minimum, yeah, have at least feed in your stores planned out for at least a year. 12 months. 12 months. That's now is when you're scratching the surface. Yes. You should have more. Mhm. You know, but bare minimum. But bare minimum have it for 12 months. And another important thing is that your sheep eat about 4% of their body weight in a day daily. Yeah. So to put it in perspective, a sheep of about 50 kilos Mhm. live weight will eat about 2 kgs. Yes. Yeah. And what you just need to keep in mind right now is it's a balanced diet. Mhm. meaning you have to have your energy, you need to have your proteins and you need to have your trace minerals well into that feed. So clearly the way you're going to source for your feed, yes, has to make

29:43 sense at the end of the day, okay, to what we refer to as a bottom line. Yes. So, but as we know in Kenya, the prices keep fluctuating. So, you have a choice. You could either try to stabilize the prices by sourcing better Mhm. or by being able to grow your own fodder. Okay? You know. Mhm. And for us that's when after the drought we started this journey of saying look what we can grow let's try to grow. And quickly we decided look we had been growing our own hair. But we quickly decided to change that and said we're going to grow what we call high cost or feeds that we consider to be harder to get. Yes. You see? So things like Lucan, Lucan grass. Yes. Things like Superbia, you know, now bracheria, those are the things now we grow at our farm. Mhm. You see, and things like hay, what we decided to do was to source and become better at it. Because with hay, there

30:44 are many farmers who grow hay. But what you just need to do is make sure you close or you lock the price. Okay. At a favorable price. Yes. And you just have to wait for the rains. Okay. Okay. Once the rains are there, then many of the farmers will have enough feed. So the prices for hay will go down. That's when you stock your bands. Okay. With so asking on behalf of the layman. Yes. You know for the layman you know grass is grass. So but you are talking about the difference between hay. Yes. And and now the other superparia. So maybe walk us through what is that? Is it is it uh uh ingredients in a blend of the feed? So just walk us through what what that thinking is from a technical perspective. Okay. Now let's let's envisage that u you have a a tray Mhm. or a plate of food. Yes. Now in your plate of food you divide it energy Mhm. Mhm. proteins and trace minerals. Yes.

31:48 Okay. And ideally what you would do, you would say 70% is energy. Now what is energy? Energy is things like wheat. Mhm. Maze. Mhm. Bali. Mhm. Those are your sources of energy. Yes. And when we talk about maze, it can be in many forms. It can be what you call your maze jam, your maze brand. It can also be your maze silage. Okay. Now that's 70% of your of your plate. Then the next part is the protein side of it. Now your protein sources are lucen, soya, cotton seed cake, sunflower, canola. Yeah. All these are your sources of protein. Yes. Now, of course, what we you'll quickly find is that the higher priced uh proteins, yes. Uh normally have a higher what we call crude protein content. Okay. So things like soy at about right now I think soy is about 180 a kilo has about 40 40 50% protein protein but here's where the trick is a ship does not require 40 50%.

32:56 Mhm. What a ship may require is about anything between 14 to 18% okay crude protein. Okay. So your cotton seed cake fits the bill. Your sunflower feeds a bill. Your canola fits a bill. So, and now I'm telling many farmers because some will say I soya is too expensive for me. I would say you may reduce your soya. Okay. And buy more of the sun sunflower which is cheaper. Okay. Sunflower now you're buying it at about 55 B. And this is the sunflower seed cake which is the leftover after squeezing the oil out of the sunflower. So it's a byproduct of the oil cooking oil process. And the same applies to the canola. The same applies same applies to the cotton seed. Okay. Yes. Yes. So that forms your 20% of your plate. Mhm. Then the 10% now is your trace minerals, you know, uh your phosphorus, your zinc, your vitamin B12. Where do those come from? Now the easiest way to do those

34:03 ones is you buy something we call a premix. Mhm. Yeah. And for us, we use a daily premix. Okay. Okay. You just buy a daily premix and then because you need it in as the word says trace, you need it in very small quantities. So in about 100 kilos of mix, you'll only require about 100 g of that premix to be mixed there. Yes. And that you're sourcing from who? That one you're sourcing from uh locally locally. A una that's where we buy from a but you can buy from other various buts we do it from okay yes great yes I think now we have a good uh layout of the importance of ah let's go to the last one correct of the three yes vet care yes so good vet care is extremely important yeah so maybe let's talk about what you do yeah and let's talk about the resources available able to farmers locally. Yes. And what the opportunities are. Okay. So for anyone starting into

35:12 this journey, what is important is to identify what I call your ecosystem players. Yes. You see, and one of them as you've rightfully mentioned is is vets. M and uh the most important thing especially for a sheep or a goat farmer for that matter is you need to get a vet who is experienced Mhm. on ship. Yes. Uh to be honest with you, many are not. Yes. And when I say experienced is dealing with sheep. Yes. Uh because what you find many of them and it just goes by production have dealt to the dairy cows and the cows the bigger animals. M so for what we call the shorts the sheep and goats many are not hands on. Yes. So the first thing I would say to any farmer starting out is please partner with a vet who has that kind of experience. Where do you get them? Most of you should look at the big ranches that run ship operations. Yes. H you should look at a place like uh

36:12 Nairobi vet or Nairobi university. Sorry. Yes. Uh Kabet. Yeah. H you will find very good guys there because they have a farm. Yes. And in their farm they have sheep. So they've dealt with them. Yes. And partner with that vet. Yes. Yeah. To come up with what we call a dewarming schedule and a vaccination schedule for your animals. Yes. Because what you find with the dopas, the dopas are very easy to take care. Yeah. Animals. Mhm. You see, as long as you are there to your vaccinations and your dewarming. Yes. Yes. Because remember it's it's we keep them for meat. Yes. For lamb and m and so growth rate and weight gain is key. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So you don't want anything that's going to disrupt that and worms do disrupt that. But so you're telling me yes upper we are sour in terms of the talent locally. The vet talent these are not experts. These are Kenyans who are here on the ground

37:13 and and do have the skill set that you require to to to achieve what you want to achieve. Exactly. Yes. I think that is that is key. Once you you partner with a very good vet and your team is skilled and when you say about skilled is let them be able to understand when a sheep is sick. Mhm. Which the vet will show them. These are the indicators so that you're also able to treat faster. Yes. Because you find with many of the farmers they only do emergencies. You know you always get the call of it's not waking up. Now you know you're already at ICU stage. Yes. And then now you're trying to so it becomes very tough cuz even the vets don't leave at the farm. So he has to come from far. So you need someone who's able now to detect early so that we can be able to treat early. Okay. Yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. Now we have covered the farm. Yes. Let's talk a bit about the market. Correct.

38:12 Yeah. And there's been a buzz word about export. But I like to start local. Yes. Cuz we deserve good things and we should also consume high quality meat. Yes. So how have you watched the journey from uh 2011 when you started to date? How has that journey of understanding that whole ecosystem? Where do you sell your animals? And yeah yeah so for us uh I mean it it's been a journey of positivity I must say from a commercial front. Mhm. Why do I say this? You know when we started out in 2011 Yes. Uh I recall the prices were at about 380 shillings per kilo dead weight. That's what we used to sell to the Yes. That's what we used to sell to the off takers. Yes. Kakas weight 380 a kilo. A kilo. M when I look at it now today same oftaker is buying at 650 a kilo mhm now what that tells me is that the demand is there yes you see supply has been an

39:17 issue because even now the the offtakers we take to now have also reduced their conditions then it used to be you need to uh uh bring in 100 head you know per order now they're willing to take 50 which also tells you the demand demand is there you know the demand is high. Now what is important now for the farmer in this journey is to embrace scale. Mhm. Cuz scale is what is going to take you over. Mhm. See yes. Yes. How are you doing on your scale journey? What's your head count now? I mean I mean we we are not yet there as our our chairman uh we call him my father. He's our chairman patron of our of our farm cuz he normally says we don't have enough. That's all I can say. We don't have enough energy. But you're on the journey. Yeah. And I also think uh our our chief breeder also says the same thing in charge of nutrition. Yes. H because we want to get to a point

40:21 where we are able to do turnovers of thousands. Excellent. That is our plan. Yeah. You see, because now we've gotten even into a point of doing aging. Yeah. We're doing cuts. Yeah. But clearly it's a good problem to have. Leo and and that's why we are so busy encouraging more to join because I'm telling and me I'm on I'm waiting. I'm coming. I'm not I'm I'm coming my guy. I'm coming. Just just pray for me. I'll be with you shortly. But let me tell you a story that kind of gutted me. And it ged me because I I I I I know you. I have visited your family. I had an uncle passed away um last year. Was last year. My late uncle Samson. He's called Dr. Samson Chmer. Yeah. And Dr. Samson Chmer was one of the early vets in this country. In fact, for a long time, he was the head of the Cabete Cabete veterary Institute. So um um before he passed on, I went to

41:27 have a coffee. I pick him up from his place and I took him to have a coffee just he was in his he was almost 90. Wow. He in fact he died at 90. Exactly 90. Wow. And I took him for a coffee and we were talking. I was telling him, you know, I've met a friend. He's doing this duper thing. I really like it. I'm planning for it. I want to do it myself. And then the guy told me a story that gutted me. Yeah. He told me that in uh between it was a 15-year project. Yes. That they run. Yes. Um it was a Kenya government project supported by I think US aid and some other board. But it was called the Kenya small ruminant project and it was built around sheep and goat farming and they had stations. I think they had one station in Kibui, they had one station in Maseno and these guys had managed to get um for goat I think he was telling me um it was a complete

42:31 research study project. says if you want to see the success of the project one he says 34 PhDs over those 15 years came out of that one project. Yes. Kenyan almost says they had gotten farmers um to the level. So the reason why he was telling me this story is because I was telling him about your journey and going to South Africa to get correct and he was gutted. He was gutted because him you're saying they had done all that work all that work breeding genetics and they were here and he says they started the project I think in 1978 and it ran for 15 years that was the life of the project. Wow. So some of the challenges we face as a nation are just challenges of leadership because we have done these things. We have this knowledge and we kind of just let it die and go away. But what I like about it is that there's always going to be people

43:33 who are bringing change and you are one of them. And I really want to champion you and celebrate you at this point for what you but for what you you're doing in in that sector. You are doing in what I call um and it's become a theme that I find in the podcast. You are doing the government's work. Correct. Because what you're offering is is extension services. Correct. you know, when you're calling farmers from around the country, come we have this exhibition that is government's work. Yeah. And so I just thought that's a good point to one tell you that story, but also to just celebrate what you're doing. Thank you. Now, Ben, yes. Let's talk a bit about the future. Where are we going? What's and I think in order to talk about the future let's accurately contextualize this opportunity because many people eat you know I go to my butcher I buy I own

44:28 patu I go I I choma I'm really enjoying now in Kenya we have all these different Tik Tok chefs and everyone's talking about how to cook you know and there's a great story there because people are learning cuts you know so what is the let's contextualize for the listener the magnitude of the opportunity. Yeah. And then let's uh speak about what the potential is. How do we unlock that opportunity? Okay. One thing is very clear is that we have a good problem. Mhm. And I keep on referencing to that we have a good problem because the demand is there. Yes. Both locally and internationally. Also by God's graces, the way we are located as a geographically as a country, we're able to support not only the exports, but also the rain and the kind of climate we have in Kenya, you can't compare. I think it's it's more of unlocking the mind one. Mhm. Because what you find with many farmers,

45:34 they are not experienced or they do not appreciate skill. We are scared of scale. M I've seen farmers coming in and saying look let me start with three and then you know it's a very common Kenyan saying but look you have an offtaker who's taking a minimum order of 50 now so what is your three going to do what is your three yeah you're not even in the conversation and the other thing is that I always I always try to push back and say look you're not going to get labor cheaper because you have three you see the way we do it at the farm You say one stockman can take care of 200 sheep. Mhm. Okay. Now, I'm You're not going to pay that stockman less because you have three sheep. Actually, you're going to create more problems for yourself. Yes. Cuz this young guy will be idle. Yeah. He's idle. Yeah. Exactly. So first it's battle in the mind and that's why we open up our farms

46:34 on Tuesdays and Saturdays for visitors to come and just see when I was uh talking about space that even at a quarter acre you can easily feed 800 sheep. Wow. Okay. So it's not a question of hundreds of acres that you have or don't have. It's more about the mind and appreciating scale. M you see and now scale is both in the animals and in the feed. Mhm. And what I've seen is that most of the farmers who have done daily seem to have an easier transition into sheep. Yeah. Because one a cow one cow eats what eight sheep eat. Mhm. So first of all he feels I'm doing more. Yes. And I'm getting more bang for my back. I'm getting more bang. And they are used to feed size. You see when you say a sheep that eats 2 kg, his cow at 40 lit is doing about 60 kg of feed per day. So this is something I can do. But that's where we want to get the rest of the

47:34 farming community into ship community. Uh the other thing is a better pricing that we are getting. Yeah. And I believe if we able to form an association that is strong enough, you know, we can lobby with government, you know, to be able to bring in uh better input at a cheaper price, more affordable, and at the end we are going to be able to produce more. Yeah. You see, so for me, it's a good problem to have, but it's a good problem to have only if we able to solve it or it will always remain a good problem. Yes. You see? Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. Okay. And you're on that journey. Yes, we're on that journey. Um and um when you talk about So you you gave us an interesting price of 650, correct? Uh so um as we draw to the end of the podcast, we started with your animals that took you to South Africa. Correct. Where you are hitting 15 kilos carcass weight.

48:31 Yes. So just to for the for the listener to contextualize what all this work and effort over 13 years has done for you. What weights are you achieving today? Now we are able to achieve between 6 and 7 months we're able to do caucuses of 20. Wow. Okay. So that's 40. Yes. But we believe we can do better. M uh uh our chief nutrition officer, she's working very hard on now the TMR which is basically the mixing of the feed. TMR stands for total mix ratio. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So working on that. So to ensure we able to give feed that can give us more weight gain and growth rate. So that's what we are working on right now. But you can see it's a journey. We've halfed the period. Yes. You see now we at about 6 7 months and before it used to be 13 months to get to the same weight to get to the same weight. Wow. Yeah. So what? But you're still not at

49:31 that guy. We are not that guy. Month four is showing you 45 kilo. Exactly there. But that's the beauty about it. And the journey but you're walking the journey which counts for a lot. Correct. Yeah. Correct. Correct. So we are working the journey and we've added one more uh pillar to the three that we always share which is u genetics feed management and now technology. Mhm. Okay. Tell us a bit more about that. Now on technology is the way you record your stuff. Mhm. Whatever indicators that you're recording weights and all that. Now we have apps that you can use. Yes. To record all that. Yes. Secondly, even the way you count, you know, there are apps that can help you. There was a very uh impressive app we saw the other day in South Africa where this guy is connected to his phone, to his laptop. Mhm. Uh and to his weight on the ground, so a ship passes, if a ship is over 50 kgs, cuz that's the

50:34 weight he wants for slaughter, it opens the right gate. Right gate. Yes. Okay. So if it's if it's below 40, it goes to the left. Still has work to do on it. So when you see with that kind of app, then you're able to only have two guys at the farm. Yes. Yeah. And you're running a massive operation. Yeah. And quickly you can be able to take orders cuz you'll be like, uh, right now at the farm I have 100 that are over 50, you know, and you know them and you've checked them and the app takes the tag numbers and everything. Mhm. So it makes your work easy. Wow. Yes. So embrace this technology journey. We can take it next level stuff. Exactly. Exactly. So it's not only in the corporate world. We are also trying to embrace technology the AI side of it at the farms just to ensure that we are steps ahead. Yeah. Or we are not left behind so to speak. Is there a

51:30 story here for local genetics? Maybe not now but in the future. Could we walk a journey? Uh, I've been reading up on sheep. So, we do have our local breeds of sheep. Yes. Um, what is it called? Masai. The red Masai. Red Masai sheep. Yeah. Is there a story there um in the future and maybe a challenge for the researchers? Yes. To to to get it to a level where it's it's playing in the same space. Yes, there's there's a story there, but the story lies more in the what I'll call the up uh upgrading of the red Messiah. Okay. And be able to get some of the traits like one of the beautiful traits of the red Messiah is the hardiness and the resistance to diseases. Okay. If you're able to build that Yes. into the doper. Yes. And you are able to change the growth rate because what you happens with the red mas they don't grow that big. But if you're able to bring the

52:28 doper growth rate into the red masai, then you have a ship. You have a serious ship. You have a serious ship. Hard enough. Yes. Something that is knows our climate. Yes. And is adaptive to our climate. Then we are talking. Excellent. Bernard. Wow. A lovely conversation and exactly what I was looking to get out of this podcast episode. M so uh one like I said once again let me just congratulate you on this journey that you're walking and long may it last and long may you continue to share your knowledge for the benefit of Kenyan and African farmers because I know people from the region do travel in fact the day I visited there was a young lady from Tanzania correct who was also coming to your farm to see what you're doing uh so ladies and gentlemen that's Amagodopa I'll give Bernard just a parting short, but an opportunity to talk about one um this training that he

53:22 does, but he's also very active on social media. So, you see him there. He shoots his own videos and he gives farmers advice on various things. So, Bernard, over to you maybe to tell the the viewers about what Amodop does. Yeah. So Amago doad we are basically a ship farm and a doper farm for that matter situated along Kagundo road about 50 km from your CBD at a place called Kafu. Here we keep dopers for two main purposes. One to upgrade uh farmer stock through selling them genetics both eels and rams. Secondly we do it from the lamb maton point of view where we also have our own commercial stud that we grow for meat. The other important part of it is we run an educational uh center I may call it that where we bring in farmers they are free to come to our farm on Tuesdays and Saturdays for what we refer to as a day trainings and secondly we also hold residential two to

54:24 three days training more aimed at your farm managers your workers who come spend time with us just to get the hands-on training of how to make your farm successful and for it to run so karib Bunisana and uh our social media handles. We are on YouTube as aopastad. We are on Tik Tok as a dopast and we are also on uh Facebook as aopastad and you can easily get us on 0702849400. Thank you very much. Excellent. So ladies and gentlemen, I hope you enjoyed that uh podcast episode 23. We are now we I think we've been diverse. We have had tech guys and I think maybe the guys interested in agriculture felt there are no agricultural enterpreneurs but we have debunked that over the last three episodes. So it was a great pleasure having you. Thank you for the conversation. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and I look forward to joining you as a doper farmer sometime in the

55:28 not too distant future. Kibusana and happy farming. Thank you very much ladies and gentlemen for joining us in episode 23 and we look forward to um seeing you in the future. [Music]