Cosmas Kamuyu — transcript

Nellions

This transcript is generated automatically by YouTube and has not been checked by a person. It misspells names and mishears words, particularly around Kenyan English and company names, so read it as a guide to the conversation rather than a quotable record. Each timestamp opens the video at that moment.

0:01 [Music] Uh greetings ladies and gentlemen and welcome to episode 30 a milestone for us. We have reached 30 episodes of the African do podcast and it's a pleasure and privilege for us to have Mr. Cosmas Camoyu uh co-founder and CEO of Nellons Reloc Nellons moving and relocations limited. Uh Nellons is a moving company. So we are going to discuss about we've never had anyone in this sector and so this is going to be an interesting discussion. Cosmas welcome to the African do podcast.
Thank you Lenard. Yes. So Cosmos let's let's get straight into it and start um this is not a mainstream industry. Yeah. So maybe we can go back to how do you find yourself? Where did you start or where do you encounter this career to a level where you now have built uh not just one but you have been party to building multiple businesses in this sector. So maybe tell us a bit about your past and how you find yourself in

1:06 this sector.
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, once more um I'm honored and privileged to be in this show today. And let me start by saying our industry is what I would describe with 3Ds.
Yes.
Difficult, disliked.
Mhm.
And some people consider it um maybe dangerous even
to be in
and dirty as well.
Yes.
Probably even their four days.
M
Yes. And how did I find myself here? I used to work for a company uh that was a large company in Kenya then that was actually quoted in the stock market.
Mhm.
Just fresh from university.
Yes.
Many years ago.
And we used to have a small division that was called uh parking and removals. Never mind I was not uh in that department. I was uh in the finance office. I was a credit manager in that company. But after many years uh like 10 years of working there, I could always tell there was a struggle uh with people when they were relocating from homes and offices. Uh there were not many players in the industry and the market was uh just too

2:27 niche out there only and very expensive at the same time. only maybe top CEOs or expatriates or foreigners could afford the service and um at the same time that time uh after some years the company itself was facing its own struggles and I could see like managers being fired and the job uncertainty was not there the economy was not growing you remember this was around just after the turn of the millennium so growth rate 1% or even negative in the country. So
yes,
the job market was very very getting very very tough
and I always had this thing that I I don't like this uncertainty that we live here. So I will not say that I love I love moving. I didn't even know much about it, but it's like more

3:15
what can I do to be a bit more I feel like I'm in control my life.
And so we partnered with like four other people that used to work with that company by then. Actually when we were starting I think all of them had left for different reasons only I was rem I was in the company. So we decided to form uh to start a moving company that time.
M
and uh yeah uh I actually quit my job and we formed a company that many of you might know called cube movers. I was one of the founders there.
Yes.
Yes. And I I quit my job. I resigned. I went there to
uh start doing sales and marketing.
Mhm.
And I had no idea what that was.
Yes.
What was sales and marketing? All I knew was credit control in my life. finance.

4:05
M
so but I said I'll try and do it and uh I immerse myself in learning and you know so you you you you see this you you you're in a corporate environment straight out of university um and you you now encounter this and you see the opportunity and four of you leave as a result of a performance and the nature of the environment. What opportunity did you see or did the four of you see based on what you had in your corporate entity um or this small division of the corporate entity? What opportunity did you see that made you say, "Okay, h I think we can either do this better because I remember Cube Movers and uh Cube Movers was quite a I if I dare say a breath of fresh air uh for the market in general and and I think it was the fast moving company to bring I would say moving to the masses, you know, and and take it from where you originally started by telling us that it

5:05 was a something for expatriots and maybe sea sweeten employees who are coming in and out of the country or moving towns but it was not something that was you know uh used by the masses. So what did you see and how did you now start building a company that takes advantage of that? Yeah. Uh that's a very good question out of my own experience and that's why I did not hesitate. I used the company to move my house when I moved and it was very very easy.
Yes.
Then I would tell this to my friends. Mhm.
Oh, if you like to move, I can help you through our company and you only pay a small fee
because I'll have your move booked under me in the company and you get nice service. I realized that

5:50
uh the demand was actually there.
Okay.
In the Kenyan middle class, they needed to move with dignity. They needed to move with a peace of mind and with predictability. Moving, as I said, is dirty, difficult, disliked and disruptive. So I out of my own experience and of the rest of my colleagues we knew that u the middle class was not being served at all by anyone and that's the opportunity that's a gap that we saw we thought we would make use of and so we tried.
Okay.
Um would I say it was easy trying? Uh not quite because business at the end of the day is still business. M
I remember um I thought about that whole process of leaving and going into entrepreneurship for like for a whole one year

6:43
and I remember buying a book by Robert Kyosaki.
Yes.
Called before before quitting your job.
I bumped on that book that book by accidentally and I and I bought it
and I used to read it sometimes even in traffic jams because traffic jams were crazy that time you were stagnant somewhere for 10 minutes I would read the book. So I used to have it in my car.
So a friend of mine saw it one time in my car and he really dissuaded me. You are reading that book. Are you crazy?
I told him yes I'm reading the book. You are planning to Yes. I said I'm planning to What do you want to do? I want to go into moving. Moving from where are you going to get clients?
He made me think like I'm actually crazy.

7:24
Yes.
But I still wanted to I respected.
Yes. And I decided I'll still read the book to the end and I will pursue what I wanted to do. But it made me think really it might not work
you know because I I even had no idea how we get to get clients, how to market, how to do the processes and everything. But I knew there was a market because of what I had seen and my colleagues also knew there was a market. So it was a more of like more determination. Then we went in and did what we did.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay. So you you you now you you get into this may maybe I can uh take you a bit and and let's speak a bit about capital. Yeah. Um your requirements for um from my layman's understanding of the moving and relocation space. Yeah. Is you have to have your own vehicles. Either you buy them or you lease them. So what was the initial capitalization journey for your new business? Is it did you self-fund? Did you borrow money or

8:30 did you say okay everyone bring in this much or how how did you handle the raising of capital to to form your first venture? For the first venture we just did some basic analysis or listing of the requirements that we require we needed that time.
Yes. And we told ourselves to start small, you know, and build organically.
Yes.
And so we came up with a figure, I can't remember, it's probably something like 3 million that time
or probably less.
Mhm.
And then we agreed to share it out equally.
Okay.
As as the initial capital and that's how we did it and and we never had to raise more capital
other than that initial one.
We never did.
Oh wow.
We never did. We never did. We we just grew with it. Yes.

9:17
I think our initial was like uh
2.5 million. Then after short time I think we added like half a million shillings. That's 100,000 per person because we are five of us.
Yes.
And that's all we did and we we never the rest of it we grew through borrowing from banks and all that. So I remember the first time we did
we bought these two old trucks
and then we hired an office which was part of a warehouse industrial area and we started operating from there.
Mhm.
Yeah. Mhm.
So, um it was um sustainable and cheap and it help us to at least set base.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay. So, uh let's transition now from cube because you're not at cube anymore. You you have been at Nellons. Um so you you've set out and and and with your partners you formed cube mos which did have a significant impact on the market but you you then transitioned out into another venture which is where you are now which is neon's moving and relocations. So what was that transition like uh and what triggered it to make

10:23 you say okay now maybe it's time to go somewhere else and and chart a different path. Wow, that's very interesting.
It's probably a story I've not told enough.
Okay.
And it's not a bad story.
I think when people are starting businesses, most of the time you start with like we in this space, we have this idea with with this gap that we can meet and we know each other.
Yes.
Right. That's a lot of businesses start that way.
Yeah. And after some time about almost 10 years of operating in cube I personally felt uh some lack of satisfaction of what had was going on. The company had grown. It was a big name. I was always in the media myself because I was leading business development and uh uh I'm naturally I would call myself a fairly innovative person.

11:17
Yes.
So I'll go for you know what I think would work and many of ideas worked. Yes. made it not work but
we celebrated the victories
but then at some time I I I I reflected I thought maybe we are not properly aligned with uh some of my colleagues we are working there three of us were executives two are non-executives
yes
and I thought that uh it's probably time I'm feeling a bit more frustrated and I don't feel like
it's not a good thing I have a passion for work myself but if I feel like pushing myself to wake up to go and do
what I like uh is maybe not a good space. I also thought that the we were not um properly aligned in what was the strategy and the the the direction the company would go

12:04
and so I opted myself to
to to leave the company and uh that's what I did. I sold my stake.
Yes. Oh, you sold your stake.
Yes. I sold my stake and I I now look for new partners.
Okay. By then I was so much my mind was fully immersed into the moving industry.
Yes.
I had when we were starting the company we were thinking about local moving moving the middle class and the between Nairobi across the country. We did a lot of that.
But then after eight or nine years in the industry I learned that the bigger game was actually even out there. international moving someone from there all the way to to wherever to part of the country.
Yes.
Uh to and from I by then I had come become an expert of in that field

12:56
of international relocations and I thought that uh
this is the biggest pivot I need to make. Okay. And so when I I I started now Nelions I call in fresh partners to partner with me.
Mhm. uh our focus was now to take our the moving industry to that international level that's where we need to play. Yes,
we need to benchmark with no one locally because we had learned that
despite all the growth that had happened in the industry
after cube like so many other companies that had sprout sprang out and many of them are people I trained personally or even recruited they come and then they go form their companies and it's okay
yes
uh but then I realized that we are there's still another bigger uh game for us to participate in that as an international level.

13:51
Yes.
And so that was our mindset
and my mindset now when we are starting Nelio is that we we are benchmarking only internationally.
Okay.
Our standard operating procedures
and and how do you
Yeah. Go ahead.
All our our approaches to doing our work should be uh referenced against what is the international benchmark. And how do you how do you then because you're Kenyan based. Yeah. So how do you then complete the loop? Because if people are moving let's let's take an example of uh someone who's relocating uh for work uh from uh Nairobi to Dubai. Yeah. How do you then complete the loop on that end? Is it strategic partnerships or what do you how do you connect the dots such that when you pack them and move them here someone takes over from uh from the other end. Uh how do you do that? Do you then form partnerships? Is there an association you join or how do how do you go about that uh setting up those those linkages?

15:01
Quote uh as you know there are uh very the world is made of so many countries. Yes.
And each country operates as an ecosystem of businesses of its own.
Yes. So the way the industry operates at that that level is through partnerships and building relationships. But it is much easier said than done because moving is a trust business. Most of the time when you are moving somebody with their possessions from like 1T 20ft container or 40ft container from Kenya to whatever
those are the only possessions they own on this earth. Yes indeed.
And many of them don't even have any other assets. Believe it or not,
even locally, you find whatever other assets they are very small of, you know,

16:02
and then these items are normally of sentimental value. A lot of it, it's not about
whether money can buy it or not. There are so many other things is memories, is people's history and all that.
So you will build the partnerships. You have the relationships but what counts most is who are you? That partner in Dubai, that partner in the US, how can they trust you? How do they know that you actually not going to tell them that they are goods? They contain a fell of Mobasa road and their goods disappear and they cannot be found.
Yes.
Having said that,
yes, we are members of international association of movers. that is the largest worldwide industry association for for all the for the entire moving industry in the world. It has more than 3,000 members.

16:56
Yes.
Um so we are members of that association.
I actually personally sit in the board, one of the boards called the core members board of that association. We are only two of us in Africa.
Okay.
Sitting in that board. Yes.
Yes. I've been there now for two years. Okay.
We representing the continent.
Yes. So we are in that board we in that uh association and you also have to play your role there you know you have to read to other members you have to attend conferences for people to see you and confirm oh this is the cosmos we see
yes
you are the one
you sometimes have to write articles in the magazines that require some contributions are required for you to to show that you actually in there that people can trust you

17:40
because again at that level uh the way that that business is done is not sometimes even direct.
Yes.
They are what we call location management companies.
Yes.
That are global.
And they go checking when for example uh a multinational is moving uh their employee to Nairobi. They don't normally contact you.
They contact through another agent or through another organization there and then they vet who they can reach out to. Yes.
So you have to play your role and you have to be to prove through action and recommendation that you actually trusted.
It's an organization. M
also as a person.
M
yeah.
So we also belong to the British association of removers
and we also belong to the Pan-American International Mover association called PMA.

18:26
Okay.
Yeah. Okay.
And in all those associations you have to show your face. You have to participate. You have to be in the in the in the game for a while.
Yes.
For a while. And I would assume you would first have to establish yourself locally to a level where they would accept to talk to you. You know, I I'm sure they're not talking to anyone.
They don't talk to anyone in uh in fact some of them do verification.
Yeah.
Checking do you have assets? Are you asset based? Moving is divided in at that level. There's what we call asset based moving companies and non asset based moving companies. Location companies.
Okay.
If you say you asset based, you have to check do you have uh vehicles? Do you have employees? Do you have a warehouse?

19:07
You know, because you cannot do international moving without a warehouse because most of the time the goods have to pass through a warehouse. Yes.
They do all these checks. They they they are there. So you you have to to be seen that you are actually
have the capability.
Yeah.
And on top of that, you have to be recommended by other members that they have actually done business with you for you to be trusted to move forward.
Okay. Yeah, it's taxing but yeah,
but you you you've cracked it. Let's let's speak about let's leave Nellions a bit and speak about the industry. Yeah. Um and and and just for the benefit of myself and the audience. Yeah. Um let's understand this movings and relocations space better. Yeah. Um because like any business, I'm sure you you meet uh policy hurdles. uh you you where do you sit you know I'm trying to I was trying to think to myself where would I place

20:09 this business in in terms of um like for example I'm a hospitality person in a Kenyan context our parent ministry is the ministry of tourism yeah all of us restaurants that's where we get our laws and lobbying and all that yeah so where does that just for our understanding and further conversation where does moving and relocation sit in in terms of uh industry uh in the nation.
Wow. Sometimes I also get confused where we sit.
Okay. So I I should I should be relieved.
Yes, you should be relieved.
Yes.
First thing.
Yes.
In Kenya,
yeah,
there's no law. There's no act of parliament. There's no any legislative document.
Yes.
Covering our industry.
There is not even a judicial precedent or a case about a moving company that oh moving is supposed to be like there's nothing to refer to

21:16
really. So there is that gap. Is it good? Is it bad? Yes. in some ways is very bad because then the entry barrier is very low. anyone would just think I can come I just need a truck and some boys and you know and say I'm moving and go to downtown Nairobi get some t-shirts and write ABC moving and then oh they even having t-shirts anyone can do that and people do that a lot
yes
on top of that we don't have even a local industry
uh self reggression you like our own association for moving companies
yes
a few attempts have been made in the past by a few people and they have not quite worked because sometimes we go in there and then you find um how do we uh um set up the rules and the requirements and for for us to work and how are you going to preach this gospel across the industry. we have not quite the former players who are there uh managed to to do that because of maybe of lack of uh understanding of our common what is our common problem or

22:30 what is our common challenge that we want to resolve or to solve. So the the the space is that it is that loose as as as we speak. Having said that uh how I've done it um all through is by building our own uh capabilities and our own rules and requirements. As I just said, I decided very deliberately that we are only going to benchmark with international standards. So we have to build like our SOPs, standard operating procedures from zero. We have very many I I lost count when they were around like 20 or 25.
Very many covering everything about what we do.
Yeah.
And uh because there's no there's no school to teach people about moving. And I would say this and people ask, "Hey, you mean to learn moving?" Yes. There's so so much to learn about how to handle people's stuff. There's so much to learn how to to to take care of. There's so much about people's property. These are life possessions. There's so much to to teach people about communication within that moving space. This is the only

23:39 space where people come to work in your bedroom.
If I asked you the last time you saw people in your bedroom, you'd actually be surprised. It doesn't it hardly happens, but movers do that actually.
They come to your kitchen. They come to your very most intimate places of your house.
Yes.
So there's so much that would go into that teaching and training. So any anybody who seriously wants to be in this space and do the job well has to invest in a lot of self training. you're in hospitality. Most of you go through through Tali or the Bulma Institute or such colleges. We hear Amboselli Institute of you know there are many that we hear teaching
but in our industry there isn't. So you every company has to kind of think about its means of doing it otherwise uh um when you let people lose out there is the standards can be compromised and generally that's why our industry has a bad name. M

24:36
if you ask about movers, people people will say not very nice things generally because the job itself is not easy.
Yes,
it's stressful. I don't know if you ever heard this uh analogy has been told that moving is the third most stressful thing in the world after the death
of a loved one
and divorce. The third is moving.
Yeah.
It's a study that was done in the US a few years ago. Yes. Yes. So in is that high pressure environment for people.
Okay.
So what uh the space is still out there not well controlled or well contained but uh even the government doesn't probably know we exist except
K. Yes.
So yeah that's a space. So everybody has to kind of curate their own

25:27
space. Space. Yeah. Tell me because you are you're a member of various organizations that you have mentioned uh international associations is there what what is in other jurisdiction what's the best case is there you said you're a member of the a US body you're a member of a British body um and in in one of those you're one of only two in Africa so is there what is is there legislation in other jurisdictions that covers the sector such that if we are aspiring ing to to to legislate uh our sector in Kenya. We can start somewhere. Yes. In nearly all the developed markets, every country there's a law,
okay, that regulates and governs moving. For example, in the US there, I think they have got two pieces of legislation.

26:20
Mhm. Um I'm not sure how what it does but what I know for example is that you are either registered as a an interstate mover you can do within the entire the US country or you are local localized to your state
or a state mover
is a state mover
uh it's there even in the UK there is law I think in Africa it's probably South Africa where there is a law
I'm not sure even Egypt has but the last time I checked someone was telling me they're trying to work on it
okay So in the developed countries yes there are laws and in every country all those countries there are also local um self-regulation through their own bodies whereby they say you you these are the rules how we operate
uh you get a a number maybe a registration number a certificate maybe your tracks are supposed to be branded in this way and contain have your number to show that you are me they are all those kind of things in those countries and it helps for them to to deal with uh cases uh whereby by people some players misbehave or they break their code of conduct or their rules. Yes.

27:26
But in our case so far there isn't probably because the market is still growing and they they still margin and all that.
Yeah. But uh ideally that's the best way to go.
Okay.
They also have in those countries serious training programs. For example, we we are members of the British association removers. We sometimes take their courses. M
yeah we do take we pay online courses we buy them we participate in their in their workshops and all that. Same the am they we also have our employees participating in those
uh uh we their courses and we they get certified.
Okay. So they train the associations do the training on behalf of the the employees a lot of times and then they certify and then the government uh through whatever authority they have they do regulation and filing of returns and all that just to ensure that the industry has a order

28:26
okay
in our case uh that is yet to happen but I believe
it's going to come
it's coming
yes
and I think one of the things you know as you're talking I'm also reflecting on past uh episodes of the podcast that we have had and one of the the the conversations I recall was in episode 21 we had a former legislator called Sammy wear as a guest and Sammy made a very interesting comment which has stuck to me and is relevant on multiple episodes of the podcast that we have had and he says he said I want to get this right specifically he says Kenyan legislators need to understand that they can legislate Kenyans into prosperity. So he says that's a connection that has not been made and that's why legislators are fighting for CDF and other things but legislation and I think you have curated the perfect example you know because if you legislate your sector well you know uh to international best case what do you do you open up opportunity you bring order you know you

29:40 you you start and then that becomes a business opportunity. Yeah. So that as you are speaking to that, I just thought of that comment. But let's go to something that you said um when we were talking off camera that I think is a good thing to segue into now that we have talked about legislation. You say that um one of your biggest challenges in running Nelions is talent. Yeah. Now I'm sure um in a Kenyan and African context h most lay men like myself would be surprised by that statement because we assume that you know like you say get a truck get people who are strong and can lift things and and put the things in the truck and move. But walk us through your talent journey and what you've seen are the gaps in that space of moving and relocations with regards to talent and how we can unlock that potential for the nation. Yeah, talent is a very very big issue for the industry

30:42 probably bigger than capital because capital you can uh go to a bank if your financials are all adding up and you have got a track record you always get I've never been turned away when I went to the bank to look for money for whatever I wanted to do never I've never been turned away
okay
so and equally even when I was raising the first capital to start an aliens there's nobody I asked to partner with me to do the business risk capital that that turned me away.
Yes.
They all
came on board.
Yes.
Easily.
I think probably because they knew me and what I stood for.
But talent is a challenge. Why is it a challenge? One, as I said, there is nobody who trains movers. If you go to a school um any school talk to people who are living from four

31:38
and I ask them what they like to become, which industry they like to join.
Yes. You are more likely to hear people talking about they will talk about the big companies going to fin banking working for the big telos and all that and even those who go for the lower like blue collar jobs they could me mention other things like becoming maybe
even a a vendor in a market or even being a mato tout
nobody will tell you about moving
they have no idea such an industry exists or they can even make formal careers out of it M yet at Nelios now we on our 11th year I've got people who are movers drivers who have worked for us for 10 years.
Wow.
So they have made careers out of this.
Yes. These jobs

32:29
there have some guys who followed me from my when I left Cuban they came to to to work with me and also they have been in industry for almost 20 years.
Yes.
This is how they have educated their children. They have even bought property and they are now heading towards retirement and they they're happy.
Full careers.
Full careers.
Yes.
But what people mistake our industry to be they confuse it with like oh you just need to be physically strong because you are supposed to be carrying a lifting stuff. Uh more or less confusing our job with like construction kind of you know. M but the skill set required for a mover is very very different. This is not the job you wear an overall to go and work like it's not full of dust. You're going to heaven sake to

33:19 someone to an abs bedroom. Do you go there with a with an overall
your mindset must be very very different. This is in is a place where you're supposed to handle things with care. How do you change this mindset from this guy who think this are blue collar work to think this where I am supposed to apply a care
I'm supposed to apply very good communication skills
sometimes you are dealing with a foreigner about uh 50% at nails 50% of our revenue comes from international moving actually 58%.
Yes.
Okay.
What does that mean? The mindset of these people you're meeting they don't even sometimes speak
isohily their background their cultural background is very very different. how you relate with them and it's about people. These these are people business. So um that's the first thing training people. There's a reason why good restaurants and hotel ask people to go to Tali.

34:10
Yes.
To be trained about about how uh to cook.
Agreed.
Everybody knew cooking. You have been cooking all through the time you are 20. You have been cooking for yourself in your home. Yes,
but there's a certain way you are supposed to be taught how to cook, how to present yourself, how to talk to clients.
That is the first challenge. So what we normally do is that once we get people, we have to train them about basic things but such a challenge because we train them and many of them go to work with competition. It's okay. I I don't mind doing it. But I and indeed I can say even right now uh that we are now in the final stages of formalizing our training academy. We have been having Nelio's academy running within the company, a

34:55 training arm of the company for the last 8 or so years.
Yes.
But now we are registering it.
Okay.
To become a full TETE.
That's where we are heading.
Okay.
And we are we want to
uh train for the industry seriously
because we have had requests even from our partners as far as Uganda and Tanzania.
Yes.
Uganda we have an office so we we we know the market there a bit. Tanzania we don't but I have got friends there telling me Cosmos once you open this TVET I want to send my guys there for you to come and train for a while because
the gap is still there it's all over the continent
yes
so so uh I just want to hammer that point
that uh talent is a big big challenge because most of it comes raw untrained and in an industry where they just came to try because I'm jobless I don't I don't have work

35:48
so when they come uh I normally ask new joiners why are you here they will tell you oh I I I I have passion for movie I tell them don't tell me you have passion you never knew moving until maybe you found out an opportunity yeah
you are just looking for money and I and that's okay we all started that way but then after 6 months or one year I asked them hey why are you still here I mean I thought you are probably just hanging around here as you wait for something else oh I now like the job
fine it's pay my bills and all that so it's the high time we made it we make it we made it formally a career that someone can thrive and grow and give value.
Okay.
So talent is at that level is very very big. But then also coming to the like the management or the mid-management um levels like you're looking for a good um salespeople or good uh managers. We we atme space in an industry that again not known or even respected. Not many people want to like to work for companies like ours.

36:50
Yes.
Basically they want to work in the telos. I want to work with a bank. I want to work with an international NGO.
I want to say where I work is a prestigious organization. So by the time you get your talent uh the the best has gone most of the time to the to the large organizations where people young people feel like yes this is where I want to belong. So for us it's it's always not easy to get uh and I would be love to see one theme that says oh talent is very easy at that level of the strategic thinkers
uh people who have an innovative mindset people who are doers and gogetters
not many of them want to be at this space they want to be at the big yet we need them to grow so when we to go to that level

37:37
so that is always a challenge I've always found even from my cube days even to date I still find attracting and retaining top top talent is always a challenge. I do have very good people to be honest at that level. But one of the things that sometimes keeps me uh um awake at night is wondering what if they left how easy would it be to get more or even to bring get fresh people and train them to that level that that sometimes gives me goosebumps.
Allow me at this point. No, allow me at this point to just compliment you. You know, it's not often that you see someone who basically takes on an industrywide challenge. You know, most of us get stuck in our little entity and trying to make it thrive and work. But for you to reach a stage where you say you are forming an academy, I think that speaks to uh an outlook that is bigger than yourself or bigger than Nellons.

38:33 Because if you do train these people well, what you're contributing to is the definition of the sector, you know, and where the sector will go. So just uh I just thought to give you that compliment while you you're sitting. We we are learning to give our flowers when the when the people are are here. So please take my compliments for that.
Thank you. Thank you for that. I appreciate because and it's true really we is a decision we have taken as a company that we have to do something for the industry.
Yes.
Uh because we started like in Uganda uh about five six years ago millions moving on locations in Uganda in Campala and the same simp problem persists. we have to um juggle our time here and deploying resources to train even across that country.

39:28
The same um challenges I think we have at Nelians despite having spent so much money training people. I believe even our competitors in Kenya have it. Many of them will tell you, "Oh, we have our trained staff. Where are they? Show me where they got trained.
Show me how they got certified. M show me show me how they you know many people train like just basic hands on and learning by go and all that but we believe that now it is a time we we we do it differently. We have cured the skill sets required for a mover and there are many
probably about 45 or 50 there specific things they need to know
for them to become you know like
good movers
good movers and you can be sure you can send them somewhere and they know what to do. So we thought that it is very very important for the industry because our country is growing. It's a high time that we elevated our moving standards to the global stage. I meet partners I have friends all over the world through the industries I and the border that I serve. You hear that in some countries like in the Netherlands the productivity level of one mover is

40:44 almost double the level of a Kenyan mover.
Okay.
Because I track we track we use data a lot. We track
the amount of time they they take to do a certain task like maybe packing or loading a container we take double that time. Why?
Why?
It's because of skilling.
Yes.
Yeah. uh it's because of skilling, it's because of training and we so you find then our our margins become low for our jobs. We we spend our costs are high and therefore our margins are low. We are not efficient, right? And then um the the job itself becomes the execution becomes a bit not so smooth because of you know those gaps. So we think that uh one more client out there
having a bad experience even if it's in the hands of a competitor is not good for the industry.

41:41
Okay.
That that's that's what I believe.
Okay.
Yeah.
So Cosmos let's let's let's delve into um something that you have just raised um in your previous comment um regional expansion.
Yeah. you you you talked about five six years ago going into the Ugandan market. Yeah. Um so walk us through that journey. Yeah. One, what triggered it? You know, you were a Kenyan company, you're still in the process of operating in this, but what made you say yes uh let me let's try and why Uganda, you know, uh in an East African context? what what opportunity did you see in Uganda that that made you say this is going to be our first foray out and then um in relation to that what are your future uh growth and development ambitions around Africa the continent and so on.

42:40
Uh thank you. Um we went to Uganda in towards 2019 or in the middle of 2019 and basically because we knew the challenges they had in Uganda were like Kenya.
I knew that I had friends in Uganda in the industry. I was also in the international moving uh cycles as a member of the am and I would go for conferences. I don't see anyone from Uganda at all.
And if I saw people that were normally uh foreign companies
uh that are owned and controlled by foreigners.
Yes.
So I knew the Uganda middle class is much smaller than Kenya. But I still thought the opportunity was still there even in Uganda. M because um the okay they might be behind Kenya in terms of uh the way development and the the mindset and everything else but I knew the challenges are just almost the same in terms of lack of uh uh formidable and reliable players. So and I also checked I had done a bit of visibility there and I wouldn't call

43:51 it market sizing but just checking you know who is in the industry who is there what are they going through I had at one point been requested by an international moving company to go to Uganda and do a survey in Uganda for their on their behalf to move somebody from Uganda to Kenya and I did it. M
they pay for my flight to Uganda just to go there and survey you know I I
that told me enough that here there's you know
opportunity
there's an opportunity so yeah that's how we started but then um uh as soon as we started in 2019 covid happened in 2020 and we got our shout on for almost two years
yes
yes
so it doesn't mean we didn't do work we continued working under those challenges and we continue to do so but I say the market is still very different uh from ours. We are operating profitably

44:48
albeit the growth has not been as
what uh we expected to happen because we have to learn so many things and learn and change but yes we are getting there and we are so far happy with with our with what has happened.
Okay. going forward to other countries. We have been thinking about it like probably we go to Tanzania but I heard two days ago that Tanzania said small business is not going to be licensed there anymore. I don't want that change. Tanzania has been that kind of a love and hate relationship with Kenya. So
it's a bit tricky. I had at one point even gone there to do my own research and I found partners to work with. But
what we do now in Tanzania, we have a dedicated partner

45:31
with who we co share business and profit share when uh business happens.
But we are not intending to go there anytime very soon.
Okay.
However, our big uh plan and actually our mission right now is to elevate mobility in Africa to global standards.
Yeah, that's the mission of Nellio's mobile locations company.
Okay. So we want to uh impact Africa. One of the things we want to do is through training that that's why we are opening up our academy to that level and we are going to have all sorts of training even online and all these kind of classes all over the continent. That's our plan and after that uh we we look away we are thinking about a way how we can uh get in touch uh get um to set our footprint into various countries

46:32 obviously starting with what is closer to us but we thought without
training first
we still struggle with the challenges because I also have friends in Zambia, Zimbabwe, Malawi I do a lot of moves to all those countries.
Yes.
And I see that problem about skilling.
M.
So I feel that is a challenge I need to overcome first.
Okay.
Before saying oh let me come here and set foot.
So this this this uh conversation that is taking place around the continent. Yeah. Around a borderless Africa uh freedom of movement among Africans, freedom of relocation, freedom of work within the African. It's still early stage, but that must be a very exciting conversation for a business like yours because inevitably if the Africans are allowed to move everywhere that that would be an an excellent uh am I right

47:29 in saying that? Yes, I believe you are referring to the African continent free trade uh
the free trade agreement but even now the charter you know if you see the just that um chatter on the interwebs if you look at Kenya we recently I think it's now 2 years since we we got visa-free access to South Africa and that has really I've seen it on the tourism side it has really boosted uh cross across South Africa Kenya tourism numbers uh and um we we will we hope uh at least I hope from where I sit with my tourism and hospitality hat to see more of that. I would assume it would be the same for you.
Certainly it's a such a very very good all those initiatives are very very good for everybody because at the end of the day um I think what the market needs what the world needs is to pay for value. Whoever delivers true value

48:23
yes
they earn out of it. M
and this um opening up the space for people to do business and to move freely and work wherever they and deliver value the way they know it is to me is such a fantastic thing. I I I I I don't understand actually I get frustrated why don't this move these things move faster I find them moving
I hear you
slowly I don't understand like CFDA we have been talking for
for years
for years now this country has ratified I don't know how many countries we going to implementation phase
if you ask me on the ground I don't see much why is there not a road cutting across all the way from Kenya over to central Africa to Nigeria a highway I don't understand because That's what would make is believe it or not Leonard.

49:12
Yes,
it is cheaper by probably 30 or 40% to ship a container
from Nairobi to London a container
than to take to Zimbabwe.
What?
Yeah. It's cheaper to ship a 40ft container from Nairobi to London than it is from Nairobi to Zimbabwe. By far. Wow.
By far by probably 30.
Wow.
25 30%.
Wow.
Now don't think about West Africa. The likes of Kivoir or
it will be double triple.
It is it's just unimaginable.
Wow.
It's just unimaginable. So
Okay. Cosmos.
It's just unimaginable. That's the way it is.
No Cosmos. Uh wow. Um thank you very much one for accepting to come on to our podcast. Um I think I'm walking away from this with um a lot of questions are seeing even a greater opportunity understanding your sector better and that is what we aim to do in in in in in the podcast which is curate African stories, African experiences and also to provide a platform for growth. Um I think I'll now invite you to just speak

50:36 to the audience and tell them who is Nellons or where they can find Nellons. I'm sure there are many who are thinking about moving. Um there may be some from our wider African audience who may want to contact you to explore joint opportunities together. So I'll give you that opportunity to to give an aon speech to to the audience. Thank you. Nelions moving and relocations is a Kenyanowned and Kenyan managed business. We say that we are international moving experts that also happen to be very good in local moving. We do moving, we do more of homes, offices, we also do international locations and we also do storage. Actually we have got about 20,000 square ft of storage where we mainly store um used household goods and office effects. All those go downs are based in Nairobi. We also operate in Uganda in in Tinder complex. We have also two small godowns

51:38 there. Not very small probably about 5,000 square ft. And we employ in both markets about 60 employees. Uh and we also uh as I said run a moving academy called the aliens academy for training movers which we want to convert into a TV. We actually taking our first cohort in September this year for and we have actually a dedicated campus which is going to be training uh movers and we have it's running with a like a college with an academy and with the with a sorry with that principal and with the a proper uh faculty to teach and uh to ensure to to ensure that we have the right people joining the industry and working for us and making meaningful for careers and creating uh value to their lives and to their families. So we are based in Kimmani on Moring Nairobi and uh anyone who wants to reach us can find us on neons.ke where they can also find it find us on Instagram or Facebook and Twitter. We

52:45 also have a Neon shop where we sell moving supplies uh like boxes, packing tips, baraba, any stuff that you need to pack uh something for your home organization. This is the one of its kind only shop actually in Kenya probably in East Africa where you can find specialized item that you need for your own personal parking and we do deliveries everywhere. The shop can be found also on ne.k/shop K/shop where you can buy all those items and delivery can be made for you all over Kenya. So um thank you so much for watching and I truly appreciate your time. Excellent. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you found that as great as of value as I have. Uh that was Cosmas Camu uh co-founder and CEO of Nellons's Moving and Relocations Limited. And uh that was episode 30 of the African Do podcast. And we hope you will subscribe to our channel on YouTube and Spotify and keep

53:45 listening as we tell stories of Africans executing excellently. Thank you very much and uh see you in the next episode. Sante. [Music]