Dan Aceda — transcript

SemaBOX

This transcript is generated automatically by YouTube and has not been checked by a person. It misspells names and mishears words, particularly around Kenyan English and company names, so read it as a guide to the conversation rather than a quotable record. Each timestamp opens the video at that moment.

0:01 [Music] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to episode 17 of the African Do podcast. Today, I've come to um who have I brought? I've brought for you my host, the the landlord of here. Um I record the podcast at Sema Box on Riverside Drive in Nairobi, Kenya. And um the CEO and founder of of SEO box is Dan Asa. I've known Dan I think going now maybe 15 15 or odd years. I met him when in another life which we'll discuss about when he was a a musician. So Dan, welcome to the African Do podcast. Asanti I'm glad I finally made it. Yeah. Yeah. You should have been like guest number two seeing that. usually just to in the background whenever we're shooting, but welcome. It's great to have you Asante. I'm happy to be here. Excellent. So, Dan Janna, I was doing my my research on you. I say, okay, I know this guy, but I don't make assumptions. So, I I usually go online

1:10 and check, okay, what does the internet saying about this guy? And I knew that you've worn many hearts, but boy, have you won many hats. So, where do we start? Let's start at the maso. Yeah. Clearly you're a creative. Yeah. Because uh architecture is what took you and architecture that does have a strong technical aspect to it but it's a very creative space. Yeah. So let's start from that Dan Dan of Maso you've at least at high school you have gone into architecture. Yeah. Yes. And where does that take you? No, I mean architecture was something that I was always interested in. Like I like you said, it was always a creative thing. Yes. I guess I had a choice between um you know when you do these career conversations with the wimos in high school. Mhm. One of the things we did a test there and a guy said, "Oh, this guy should be a lawyer." You? Yeah. Me? But I never really saw myself as a lawyer back then.

2:11 I I I never really thought to myself. So I met another guy another one of the teachers. I was walking on the corridor told the guy you know I did this test this thing said I should be a lawyer. What do you think? The guy said you cannot be a lawyer. I he said you you are going to be so impatient with that whole process of the law process of law. I see what they mean but you would never be I think you should consider what else is on your thing. So then we went through and he said architect said that's more realistic. it to a lesser creativity. So I really think he captured so I went and I changed and I went to architecture school um University of Nairobi add guys. Yeah to be honest I really loved the architecture process. I feel like it taught me a lot about um analysis. I always say that architects are taught to look and to see. Yes. Um and that lesson was very

3:13 very powerful for me. There are still things I I remember from that time. I also um picked up rigor. Yes. Yeah. Uh repetition and discipline. And discipline and architecture school was very good for that. So I I'm very happy that I went through it. So six years of architecture school. Six years. Did you practice after you graduated? I practiced after I practiced. I worked for several firms. Um and then I had a really bad boss. So my first my first boss was was a good guy but he had a small project small thing so it was only a short-term engagement. My second boss um was also a good guy but again small practice and he had to fold and and get a job cuz didn't get many jobs. Okay. Um and then now my my third boss where I actually practice architecture for longest was really terrible guy. M um like he he really made me hate it. Really? Yeah. He really made me hate it.

4:11 He made you hate the craft. Yeah. Yeah. I hated the craft. Yeah. Wow. So I I I no longer was interested in um in in doing the work. So I stepped out and went fully. So I'd always done music as as part of my life. So even through uni through uni through high school also. So I was always there. But now when this came I just knew I can't be an architect anymore. I have to change. Really? Yeah. And so I Have you have you interrogated that one more since then? Maybe maybe it was the guy. Not I For sure. For sure it was the guy. I think if I had a different boss, I'd probably still be really more active. Yeah. So now you you have this talent clearly. Yeah. But even when you went into music, you didn't go down the beaten path, you know. You you went I remember you were the you were the banger guy, you know. So how do you then you've been singing through high

5:02 school through through uni and so on but now you have decided to make it a craft. Yeah. So how does that come about? What triggers it or what makes you say okay this thing can it can give me some tunes and I can make some money through. Now that one was easy because um I through high school I was already dabbling in music and trying things out. Guys had home studios. I used to go there. Um and then I I had a friend. So I so I had saved some money through small job that I was doing up and I'd saved some money that I wanted to produce an album. Okay. So I made two tracks. One track was made by uh at those days it was called uh um oh Suzan Gashuka studio. Okay. Um Samati. Samawati. Samati studios. Yeah. So the producer there was a guy called Tim Rimui. Yes. So I know Tim. Yeah. So through church Julian Mashar actually Julian Mashar connected me to Tim. Yes.

6:03 Um and then Tim made one track and then I made a second track with I ran into on the road by the way. Yeah. Technically discovers me cuz I I rent him on the road. Yes. Unnecessary noise. The album has just come out. So I just walk across the road and I introduce myself and says here's my number. Come to the studio. Mhm. I end up losing the number. Anyway, I find why again I go to the studio, we record what I think was the last ever song recorded at Blue Zebra because they moving. Yes. So I recorded a song there called and they were moving. So I think they were breaking down the studio to move. So why finishes the song and then they move. Um so then uh I have these two tracks on a CD. Yes. And I'm sitting at a boys night thing. Yes. That Goi Go was our pastor. Uhhuh. So go had put together five or six boys. We used to meet him every two weeks for my

6:59 So I'm there and I brought my I brought this CD H and I'm showing the guys my music. In the morning the CD is missing. Remember this is the thing that has all your music. Your two tracks I don't have my money. I don't have money to go back to studio. Yes. So this the one of the boys a guy called Ian Ki we call him J he had gotten a job and was working with Kajjim Bugwa and KJI had just come from sto Yes and you're setting up Kijiji records so Ian took the CD and took it to Kanji okay and said ba sign this guy you have to sign this guy this studio can't start without this guy remember me I'm heartbroken I don't have my music there no masters I couldn't disaster disaster. I get a call from K about 3 weeks later. He says, "Come to the studio." Um, and then we start recording. Mhm. And so by the time I'm in Kij I don't think I've started university yet. This is just after high

8:02 school. So Jan I start when the album is almost ready. Okay. Yeah. And then now you know architecture and music are now parallel. Yeah. They're going together. But KJI teaches me basically how to make money. Yes. Because now with KJI, I learn how to play gigs, how to charge for gigs, how to set up a band. All these things that I wouldn't have learned any other way. Yeah. Um and so now through that cuz through KJI, I meet Eric, I meet Aaron, I meet like all these other musicians. All these other musicians. So I have the craft with me. So all through university I'm I'm I'm making money. Yes. through music. So it was not new to you. No. So when I'm leaving architecture, this was the obvious thing. Okay. Because by that time I had pretty established. I had a band. I had band equipment. So it was not hard to simply say let's move on to that. Let's do that

9:00 primarily the next few weeks as we figure it out. So where um that first those first two tracks, what happens to them? Do you release them? How does a market receive them? So the two tracks end up going in the album that we release at Kijiji. Okay. So they end up being there. Of course we we made more music. Yes. So they were kind of like album fillers. But you've now geared the um by the time you leave architecture to go into the music. You this music ecosystem is so to speak. Yeah. I was already in. By the time I'm leaving architecture, I've done two albums and I've done a lot of like live music. So I'm already in. And so I'm just saying it was an easy it wasn't going to cross over from from the architecture. Yeah. Okay. But you you then leave and you are fulltime. You say this craft is going to to to feed me. Yes. Then Yeah. And then

9:56 now it's in the struggle, you know. Yeah. You're you're in the grind. Now I'm in the struggle. Um I set up a studio. Um, this part of story is interesting cuz I I set up my first studio uh just after I leave architecture. Mhm. Um, I don't know anything about recording. And I set up my studio because we were working on a project. Chris Adar was a good friend of mine. Yes. And Chris was going through something and he didn't pick up my call for like a week. So I was like, uh, he was something was happening and I couldn't find him. I like, man, I need to deliver this recording. Yes. Uh so I set up the studio basically to deliver this one recording because you used to use work at Chris's studio all the time. Yeah. Something was happening. And when you say setup what you bought equipment or where is the color from see live you you get to savings. Then I and

10:55 what I set up was literally a $50 mic. Yes. 50 dollar mic. I had one cable which I took from my band cable. It's a purple cable actually which is still working in a studio today. Really? Yeah. It's working at House of Dilly. My cable is records everyone at House of Dilly. That purple one. Yes. So all those guys doing Okay. And then I had a keyboard from from the band and I had a computer. Yes. Studio set. Let's start. M so where is it physically in the location? Inside my house there in the house. So this thing was a project I had gotten u one of my friends had pitched a a song uh and some radio ads to a client of theirs and then he calls me and says so the pictures we've pitched this thing it's gone through we don't have this song and we don't have these radio ads can you deliver them? Okay so that's the first job I I get. M um and the the thing was

12:02 so funny cuz the guy who pitched it, he pitched it but the contracts were separate. So I got a separate contract from the client and he got his own separate contract from the client. Okay. This is where the was coming. I needed to pay a bunch of actors and pay a bunch of singers for us to realize this thing. Okay. But you don't have Yeah. A contract. Yes. Uh I think that contract was like 60k or 80k something like that. And these guys have said so you go to the work in 2 weeks you get your you get your you bring the work when we approve we pay. Yeah. But senior capital to do this thing. So I'm looking so I go to banks. I go to all the banks are like nothing nothing. I I'm looking everywhere. I remember a guy there used to be a bank called Development Bank. Yes. That guy told me, "Bana, I don't know what you have to tell me. Just walk outside. Go back outside. I'm not listening to anything

13:07 you're going to say. I hope I meet that guy one time again." Yeah. And then um anyway, at the end of my day, Yes. because what I did, this guy's office was in Westlands. Yes. So for that contract meeting what an LPO was printed and given me an LPO and a signed contract. So I walked to town from west I need to now finance this thing. So I walk from west till I walk into all these banks. Nothing nothing. So at about like 4:00 5 I decide because I only have 50 bob let me walk till Kenyata then I take those mats cuz I lived on let me take those 34. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So as I'm walking up a community I see equity bank they just set up at at NHF building. Yes. So I'm like actually today I haven't been to an equity. I've walked many banks but equities said let me enter here because anyway it's on my way. So I walk in there I found a guy I tell him this my name I want to do

14:31 I have a studio I have this this uh contract and I'm basically looking for money. The guy asked me do you have an account to talk to? I said no. He says okay. Uh would you like to open one? I said yeah. I said but I haven't brought anything. I just saw my ID. He tells me she go make a photo copy there. I tell I can't make a photo copy. I will go my tomb. I can't make a copy. That guy told me, "Give me the idea and sit down." He went, made a copy. He came back and this is not a paid advert for equity. But equity was a big part of my my story cuz the guy made a copy, came back, he took a photo of me with a digital camera on a white body that black you stand there. Yeah. Yeah. He took a photo. The guy opened the account and told me, "You told me had a contract." I said, "Yeah." He looked at it and told me, "Go upstairs and look for a guy called first floor." So, I go upstairs. I find this guy, Charles, and

15:25 I give the guy that thing. So, so these guys, do you have a number for these people that I can call now? Now, it's like four. Say, "Yeah, I know the guy, you can call the guy there." So, he calls a guy says, "Do you guys know a guy called so and so?" Yeah. Are you guys working with him? Yeah. S this LPO is from you guys. Yeah. When will you guys pay? Okay. Still okay. S the guy signs some things up. Sends me back downstairs. Go back to the to the cashier guy. That guy gave me 40k. Apple. Yeah. I had been in equity for less than 20 minutes. What? The guys took the thing and they said based on what we are seeing here, there's 40k in your account. You verified. Yeah. There's 40 in your account. You can withdraw it if you want your ATM card tomorrow. We can't give you tomorrow card. So the next day they printed for me an ATM card and I had access to 40k. I did the production in

16:27 two days to me actors everybody. Everything was done. those radio ads you need 18 I don't remember how many I mixed everything everything was ready in my studio I didn't have monitor speakers I was using a wedge a monitor wedge alive I mixed everything up and then I went to Steve studio for reference studio I begged him to listen to reference I delivered the work they paid the balance now I'm a studio into your account into the account that now I didn't have two days before. So that's how that started. And now now after I did that project, I got another project of the same kind. We're now doing commercial music. Yes. Yeah. And so then suddenly now it's a studio. Commercial music being what? Music for ads. Music for like corporate uh communications. And what's your studio's name? What did you call your studio? Those days I used to call the studio the Afghan bonfire.

17:29 Those days. Yeah. So now you're a you're a what do we call you? a music producer. Now I'm a producer. Yeah. With a studio. With a studio. But we just have the studio has a $50 microphone. Mhm. One cable. But you have done gigs. But you have got LPO and you have been paid. You're inside. Yeah. You're inside my guy. Now by there. Yeah. Actually, so I'm pitching. I'm going to pitches. Um you know I'm actually pitching and now against KJI was a pitcher. Yeah. I arrived at the pitch. Ki was there. I was there. was there. Yeah. Yeah. Now I'm pitching against my your teachers. Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. So to my answer that picture I think Ki won. Where are we year- wise? Uh this is now just after college. It's like 2012. 2012. 2011 2012. Wow. So now you've become a producer. Now I'm a producer man. I start working with Aina. I work with Steve Nabua. Yes. Yeah. I

18:29 start recording artists. Okay. Okay. So, um you uh let's let's move this along and and and we come now here to I was reading about how you stumbled on podcasting. Yeah. H maybe you can walk us through that story. So a guy comes to ask you if you can record a thing called a podcast and I have no idea what he's talking about. So I set up another studio. Okay. Now I'm more established, right? Yes. You you have a name. You've done some gigs. So now I set up studio called T. Yes. And it's at the go down. Mhm. And a friend of mine comes and he says he wants to do audio recording. He says we're just going to talk. So now I have a I have two mics. So we put two mics in the live room and the guy just talks. Then at the end I asked him, "So what do I do with this audio?" He says, "You know, just just just put it together." So I mix these two files. I

19:32 said, "Can I put music?" "No, he didn't want music." He doesn't want music. Can I say, "No, you give me the audio." You give him I give the guy. So we keep doing that for for years, actually. You charge him or No, I'm not really charging him cuz I don't know what the guy what the guy is doing. Yeah. I don't understand. This is a music studio. We usually record 16, 12, 16 channels. There's a guy coming here to record one, sometimes two. So, I don't even feel like I should charge him. But every once in a while, he gives me five. So, ak 2K, whatever. And we're just moving. Yeah. And then the studio closes because the goan is redeveloping. So, they tell us all to move out. I move all the gear to my house. But we keep working with this guy. Okay. He still comes. Still comes to my house. God is one channel thing. Co comes. Yeah. H but now I'm hearing

20:20 about podcasting and I attend an event. Adele is launching a podcast. So I attend that event. Adele is there with her podcast. We we watch them. I'm like, "Okay, I'm beginning to get it cuz Adel of course she brings a little more matters." Yeah. And then also a little more process that I'm used to. So she's coming from radio. So she has a little more process that I can see. Yes. So I'm also this is what that guy is doing has been doing. So now it's making sense. A year goes by, COVID comes. Barza has just opened happens. I'm in a meeting here with Chris Ammani, Josephine, and Melissa of Africa podcastfest. Yes, we talk about podcasting and how so many people want to start podcasts. I say, I know about that. I've produced a few, but we're here with Lee. Lee's produced a man's podcast for years. So, please tell me how he does it. I'm listening. Okay. So,

21:14 this thing is a thing. That guy was not mad. He's like a guy who used to come to my studio and by the way it's all love. I won't mention the guy's name. But yeah, anyway, we talk about it. We say we'll do something for podcasters and then we cuz I told Chris about my my my story about this random guy who comes here to record audio then he goes away and Chris Chris and I have been friends for so long. So even the studio this is Chris who? Chris Mongay the creator of Baraza. Yes. So even at the go she used to pass by on her way to work with stories and this guy wants to record and I don't know what he's doing and we know it. So she remembers story says but see we're recording a guy say I was and I'm still recording him and anyway then he's also coming to my house with many people and I'm struggling with this number of guys. So Baraza says we'll do something

22:04 we don't do anything for a few months. Then I'm in a meeting again here. I come to Baraza randomly on a day. I just had cabin fever. come here. I meet Maurice Maurice of Balaza. He says, you guys had a conversation about podcasters. What were you guys going to do? He said, you know, yeah, we spoke. We said we should do something, but M says, why don't what can we do? I say, you know, the best thing maybe we set up a studio so that these guys have a place to record at least. Yeah. And you can edit. It's really not a big production effort. We do tomorrow. Mhm. I say, "Oh, yeah. Actually, that guy, I'm supposed to record him tomorrow." So, yeah, instead of my house, you can come here. Let him come here. So, we set up here. There's a single boardroom here. We set up a boardroom. I bring there's a green suitcase here that used to carry the the mics. Yeah. I bring the mics and we set

22:58 up and you record and we record that guy that day. Then Morris goes and does a interview with a reporter on Medium about how we've set up a podcast studio. That one that experiment now is being hyped up days later. This place is full. The whole place here full of guys like this. They have come. They've come to CO podcast. Remember we have cafe at 7 7:00 p.m. Uhhuh. We're in pandemic that time. Pandemic. Yeah. 7 p.m. You can't be more than 15 people in a room. This place is full. They've come to record podcast. We are saying now who do we record first? We don't know who came first cuz me I came at 10. I I found people I don't know who came first. You don't know how to charge. We don't know how to charge. So first we just record people. Then then after a week we're like this is crazy. The numbers are too high. Let's let's add a a cost. We say it's 2,000 Bob come on Monday. Yeah, there's more

24:01 people than last time. Nice legit guys are like see when it was free we didn't know but it's 2k we know if I pay my 2k I'll get my recording guys come our next problem is shacks as a guy who came here the guy who complained he said I came at 9:00 me I'm still sitting I haven't recorded it too other guys were coming at 11 I've recorded they've gone I'm like I just didn't know you if I knew you recorded it but I say let's make a calendar a system. Yeah. So that you can book a time. Yeah. So another friend of ours called Nikki makes a a page on Baraza's website. Yeah. And we start booking there. Mhm. Go to the website, book your slot. Now we say you go to the website, book there. Then us guys will go according to the bookings. Yeah. Yeah. Boom. We are in. Now we are we recording podcasts. Now I'm recording here 9 until 4. Then I'm in traffic till the house cuz coffee

25:06 is 7. Yes. I reach 7, I edit everything for guys the whole night. So that tomorrow I come back. So I'm editing till 4:00 a.m. and I come back in the morning and that's the business. Just like that. Just like that. Morris is receiving 2K 2K 2K in the in the Barza account. Barza. I don't think Barza had an account. I also box has no account, but we've painted the wall green and we put this logo there, but we don't have a bank account. We don't have registration, nothing. So, you're like sending money to someone's phone. We're just suffering through it. Then now we get a big contract, which is where now we get jolted. Yeah. Remember, we've been doing 2K 2K 2K. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A big N Joe comes here and tells us as we have a project for six episodes, we'll pay you guys 70K. Six podcast episode, we'll pay 70K. That's what's in our budget. We're going

26:04 to pay you guys 70K. So first we start thinking where will we bank this money cuz we have no bank account. So we really struggle with that project. We did it very poorly. H but they trusted us. The thing goes out. We stay another two months. NCBA come here. They tell us they're making a project. They reject us. They say our space is too small. The boardroom is too small. The bank needs a bigger. We need to co your table. Yeah. You guys Yeah. You guys are bor. So we feel hot. They go to two weeks later Dorothy of Google calls me. Says I've seen on the internet you guys have a studio. Say yeah yeah we have a studio. We are trying to record 80 pieces of audio content in conjunction with the National Museum of Kenya and we are getting all these quotes and the quotes are too high. Do you think we can do this at 400K? I tell give me one second to consult. Then I almost collapsed.

27:17 I can't believe it. I'm like what? So I'm like maybe I'm not understanding this lady's job. So I call her back. What do you really need? She explains and the truth is she needs more work. So we're closing the studio for 2 and 1/2 weeks to accommodate the Google job. Yes. So we told all these creators to calendar image. Yeah. Yeah. For the next two and a half weeks. They come here Google team with uh John Cookum and they're now reading these scripts and some guys from the museum. Yes. every day 9 to 3 editing at night 9 to 3 editing at night for two weeks we deliver these things at a pro level cuz I'm getting calls from UK bring this thing at the it's Google so you have to bring it at the top audio level this 400k is is is Kenya shillings or is US yeah yeah it's Kenya shillings that's our biggest contract ever. Yes. Then we do for them some writing. We do some extra work. The

28:22 contact grows a little bit to like 700 800 cuz of scope creep. They needed extra things. But it's like two and a half weeks of our lives. Working every day 8 hours editing at night delivering to the guys cuz animation was being made based on based on the in Singapore. Oh, we're doing the audio in Kenya. We're delivering at night. The guy in UK is sending the audio to a guy in Singapore. They're making animation that side Kenyan animators have to add characters. Those characters are still going where it's a complex project. The government is involved cuz it's I with Gava even man. But I'm dying cuz I'm I'm editing. I'm the one running the studio in the morning. I'm editing at night. So I'm really dying. So at the end of the project was close to December. That thing launches. It's a big success. Google says how do we pay you guys? We remember B. We don't have a

29:12 bank account. We don't have a way to collect this money. So Maurice, I don't know what Maurice did. He finds a way. The money is collected somehow. Memory just calls me tell says Google paid we have the cash. What do we do with it? I said but those NCB guys we have to make a bigger studio. Those guys told us our studio is tiny. What can we do? Somebody says you know by there you are right. Yeah. Let's remove that partition that thing of ours. A cab room. We had a short cab room this side. Yeah, let's go. So, yeah, it cost us. We do. We remove the ceiling. We are ceiling. Yeah, we did this. All these glass was replaced. We put sunproof glass. You're bowling now. 600k to the contractor. Boom. These guys can't tell us you're small again. Come back. Can you see me now? So, we start the year. Brand new studio. H. Everything is less now push. Now Morice tells me you have to go

30:15 register a company now. Yeah, you know jokes. Me I can't deal with you. I I can't explain to the team internally what these tunes is. Tunes are just coming through my account. I don't know these things. Go register. So now we register uh I look for bank account and then now now we are in with your new we have a new studio now and now Baraza has become defactory your landlord. Correct. Now we have to do a deal for Barza. What are you going to formalize? Formalize now. So we start to do that thing. Box was good for Barza because we were driving foot traffic. Yes. Very very much. Yes. Barasa was good for box because Barza could give us cover. Yes. When we couldn't do our job, Baraza could give us cover. Yes. So that became like a symbiotic relationship. Very very good. So we sat down, we did the arrangement. He said, "Okay, so this is why it's good. Let's now push on." But

31:11 now it's more formal. Um and so then we from there it was just now what can we do together? How can we keep pushing? So now that we understand the background now you've become you're you're the podcaster. There are others who are coming but you're the pioneer in this podcasting space in a local and you serve me a lot of other people and you're kind of defining this space but let's take a step back. Yeah. Yeah. And whether you you have not by choice you are a player in the creative economy. Yeah. Yeah. And you have had uh a good let's say 20 odd years maybe plus or minus playing in this creative economy. Yeah. So before it was a buzz word you were here you know playing jamming nin learning from ki and the rest the pioneers in the space. So it would be interesting to take your take on it. Yeah. Where is it? I like I really like that story you told us about equity because I think you know stories

32:18 have to be real. You know when guys are saying that access to capital is a problem. I think we talk about it very very frequently and we say this one of the buzz words access to capital and but now your story is it really gives it real context. You've worked hard, you've got a job, you have but you'll be paid as part um than than when when I started. I think it's easier to start a business now. I still think there are some problems that are still affecting us. Yeah. And I can start with one of the major problems is just us. Mhm. As creative economy players, we don't do business in the right way. We still do business like it's a hobby. Yeah. We are not doing it the right way. So that's on us. Okay. Um and then when you say that, do you mean from a structure perspective? Yeah, from a structure. Bank account man. That's a story for a lot of creative

33:22 businesses and guys are not making that next step of actually let me let me go bank it and then once you bank it now I separate my money from the company money and start just basic things like those and that's on us um and then of course structurally we're still struggling for instance um if you think about IP protection yes government recognition of IP that stuff is still where M we far we are so far even education government education government itself doesn't understand IP yes um and and in that case we are very far but I would say the biggest one is just like commerce and trade Mhm. Yeah, we the the structure is still not if you do found what do you mean by commerce and trade? If if I was selling cabbages Yeah. and I went to sell cabbages to Barza Barza would buy my cabbages at the market rate. Yes. And they if I told them a cabbage is 20 bob they would

34:25 say sour and they pay because they can check the cabbage price elsewhere or whatever. Yeah. The way Barza treated SE box they treated us as a business and they were like here's a business that we could partner with to do something or try something with. That's the thing I mean that's commerce and that's trade that you do a deal with someone and you trust that they deliver something and you're willing to pay them. Yes. And you do it because you have mutual benefit both of you. Yeah. Trade with NOS's, trade with other commercial entities in Kenya isn't like that. They come to the table thinking we are kind of grandmother grandchild thing but they're bullies you know. Yeah. They're bullies. They're bullies. Today they say what they are. They are bullies. Yeah. Today I'm having a conversation with a client about us charging them $80 a month for

35:19 administration fee. $80. 12k. They're arguing is too much. What do you mean? A whole month of of admin. Yeah. We need to like buy air time. Just need to buy air time. You need to Yeah. SD cards, whatever. Yes, but it's our work as work and we haven't done the necessary social work to teach them that our work is work. And so we still have these long if you work with an engine. Yeah. They tell you, oh you are going to report this way. So you you leave out your normal work and then you report the way them they want to report. They don't tell that to the cabbages guy. They don't tell that guy to to the cabbages guy. They just do the deal. Yeah. Yeah. They don't tell their lawyers. So, is it a this way? Do you think it's a lack of Yes, it's a lack of recognition, but do you think it's a a lack of value for your intellect? Yes. And that we have not and and and part of

36:23 that is on us. We haven't held the line. You haven't educated. Correct. And hold the line. Say, "No, no, no. I'm actually a professional, so I'm going to work in this way. I totally understand that you you have your own template. This is how I'm going to work. I'm happy to work with you this way. Yeah. If it's not able for us to work this way, I'm not the right partner. But let me let me let me let's flesh that out a bit. Cuz when when I say that the corporate world Yeah. are bullies. Yeah. I think it's because they can. Yes. And that they can starts pass from access to capital. We'll still come back. We'll still come back to access to capital. You can help her. You change it like this. You go like this. It It's waiting for you down there. And And there it comes. Because the reality is most creatives and I dare say many entrepreneurs and businesses, yeah, are

37:21 bullied because of desperation. Correct. The gig, cash flow, cash flow. I'm waiting for the gig. I can't wait. I I know that from there I'm chucking some tums for my wife is waiting for salaries. Salaries. So you say I can't wait. Yeah. And this guy knows that you can't wait. But he has something on you. Why he's holding the past strings. So when he tells you report report like this like this and it's not how you report you know it's extra work but you're like I say I just need to get the end of this because I don't have so that evolution of the ecosystem is is is still a working very important point and we haven't built facilities or options outside of that system. Okay. Like there's nobody lending to the creative industry. In the same way, I listened to the EABL CEO talking last year. She was talking about the finance bill 2023 that had brought for them excise duty to be paid in advance

38:25 for for manufacturer of beer. Yes. And she was saying the challenge is I make a beer in September. You want me to pay the excise duty in September? But I may not sell this beer. Mhm. till deck. Yeah. Or maybe even best case scenario, I sell it the next month. But you asking me to fund that excess duty. Yeah. In advance. So now I'm going to borrow from the bank to pay you to pay you. Then I go sell. Yeah. Now you see the bank is always ready to give that money to pay excise. But me this mic the price of this mic in Kenya is double. Nobody's funding me to pay the the double is because of K. Yes. Nobody's funding me to pay the top pay the their duties or the taxes on the mic on the mic. Uh and so I can't find that. I have to somehow figure out the total amount to have this mic here. And there's no facility for me to go and say give me an OD. I want to buy this mic. I think I'll record

39:31 podcast. I'll pay you in as we go. They are not no stifling stifling stifling for sure and and there isn't that's why I'm saying we haven't built the financial system that that looks at us as a what would building it look like in your opinion as someone who consumes I think somebody one of us has to make enough money to to lend to us like a shillock ginaba I think that's how it has to start somebody has to have enough money to just give you a business case yeah just start shyocking for price creative and slowly build a system until the day you can go collect the but we need a guy to go we need somewhere to be able to go and get a meter quickly for creative business there's no you you don't think there's a business case there not a shill you know shillock but we being fixed by these shillocks in I call them the formal shillocks man the tech guys man those guys are bad they

40:32 are cool I knew some Crazy tombs. Yeah, but but they are the ones willing to take the risk on us. You see, fair enough. Bless these guys. They're not willing to take the risk. Yeah. They're not willing to go say, "You need a meter. You're shooting a movie." Okay. So, what happened to that equity system? That one which gave you 40 juice. See, they changed it. I was in a became for I was in a panel juicy and I met a person. I told him the story. Do you guys still love that thing? No, we don't have you. See, it's not there anymore. But there was a time you could walk to equity and you could get funds. They were not going to fund you. It became Oh, they changed. It's now called LPO financing. Now it's complicated. You have to bring your grandmother's baptism certificate. You can't get there. That time I knew you needed you need it real time like that time. What they would do

41:26 was they would check is this a real supply? Is this guy selling something to someone? M which is why they called the client to say this deal with these guys once you confirm that and if it's a reputable client on the other side they pay you now they don't do that anymore for small business as well I don't I'm putting words in their mouth but I don't I don't think they do well it has become a complicated structure has become a more complicated structure now they they they do other things but that time it was a straightforward thing they charged me 10k for the service like at the end when the money was paid they they took their 10k they took 10k Okay, the rest is yours. Nice. And that's a type of finance system that that builds trust. You see, also we're in a low trust economy. True. Somebody has to take a risk. That's why I'm saying some of these shillocks, yes,

42:12 they're breaking people's legs and I understand. But they're the ones willing to take the risk with a guy. True. Yeah. And now if there's nobody and that's growing the ecosystem. Correct. You have to be willing to take the risk. And that means you have to willing to lose that money. You have to willing to lose it because you're not taking the risk the same way by the guys are thing money. Yeah. So why don't they want entpreneurs to lose that to quote Naval who said you know if you're comfortable losing that money to fraud and corruption then see you give it to young guys find an ecosystem might as well be willing to fund it and let them try one of them might become the guy who who cracks it. Yeah. And you have to be willing to say um we've given a million out, nine guys have disappeared, but this one guy is going to become something actually is moving and ba this

43:02 one guy we now have 3 million. So we're writing off that 900 GS we again who has an idea we give you 100k you you try something. I I feel like that's what needs to happen. So again may I think this has to come from inside the industry. One of us, you know, one of you, one of us has to say, "Guys, I'll be lending." Yeah, I'll be lending this way, but I'll be lending. And there there's not m you tell me the project, we me have reached a point where with creative industry, I'm beginning to say, "Don't train us anymore." Yeah. Stop training us. Trained us too much. We have been trained on everything. Bak proposal, write this journey, guys have been trained. I feel at the moment now or the training can continue for guys who still don't have the training but what needs to grow the funding money we need to start finding a person I don't know at this point I'm like and it's across the

43:59 board yeah so it's you guys it's it's the guys who are producing content the guys who are doing movies the guys who are doing everyone needs this service correct a guy who comes and says to Crazy Kenna I've seen the skits you're making let's do a gig I'll put up the 5 m for the gig. You just make posts and makes kids ready to we try and sell tickets. Yeah, that's someone who takes that jump tells him do the thing you're doing. And it's going to have to be a guy and I like what you're saying about it being a fellow creative because it's going to have to be a guy who is immersed enough in the ecosystem, correct? To understand how it works. you know there's this and that's the thing yesterday discussing the new chair of the Kenya Film Commission. Yes. And I'm sorry to discuss him and he's not here but he's a lawyer and advocate for 20 years. I know. He doesn't know. Ah you guy you

45:05 brought me back to that topic. That topic disturbs me. There's no hope. So the guy doesn't know. So we are relying on this guy to lobby for us to how will he lobby? He doesn't know. So we now have to teach him fast. Yes. 2 years. His time is 3 years. Yeah. Then now we say now go lobby. This thing has to change man. So so it's not possible. Um and that's why I'm saying and I have nothing personal against the the great man. But I'm just like you're not going to be effective. Unfortunately, we need a guy who is with us. Yes. But you know, maybe we should expand this conversation and start asking because I like that it's starting to come up. I was discussing it with I think in one of the podcast episodes with Black Rhino. Yeah. And I was saying to him, it's the same frustration I have in the tourism sector. Yeah. We start from zero with every new PS,

46:03 every new CS and then the the the it's the same routine on who they appoint to the parastitos, you start by teaching. Yeah. And what what I find to be a bit oxymoronic is the talent is there. Correct. Even if you want to put political connotations in it, you say find me a guy who understands this film sector is a supporter of this political party to appoint us channel. Exactly. Find but we we we we keep on fighting this talent you know the intellect that we have as a nation. We are not it's not complimentary. So what happens? We slow down the progress. Exactly. And I like to use the example of which we are all reaping and benefiting from. Yeah. The one time we had a PS and a CS who were aligned. Yeah. And they knew the levers to pull in the sector. Yeah. It was demo. We landed fiber optic things we didn't even know you know connectivity is expensive. We have satellite links

47:06 and we have fibers have landed. Boom. Now 15 20 years later all of us are smiling. You know Kenya has some of the best internet connectivity on the continent and even in comparison to the world a lot of guys come to Kenya and they say oh wow your connectivity and look at the industries that are Yeah. Yeah. Yet what frustrates me is we can't see that if you are to replicate that thing again and again and again to this to this then the possibility of reaping the same fruits is there. Yeah. Yeah. And and and that's the thing and I feel like um cuz what you said is so powerful because the opportunity cost is high. Yes. The opportunity cost is very high that as a producer when I'm talking now we're doing finance bill 2025. We have to go engage. Yeah. Yes. We have to tell them like I told you a mic in Kenya if you are producer in Kenya a mic in Kenya

47:59 is double Mhm. the price of a mic in the global market. Really? Double. Yeah. This mic is I think 500 bucks. key later,000. It's a,000 if you follow the the system. Yeah. $1,000. We have to go lobby for that to be removed cuz we're not competitive. We need to compete with the guy in DC. Yes. We need to compete with the guy in London. That guy is getting gear at half the price. Half the price. So, I'm already outside the comp. Now, for me to lobby with that guy, I have to go teach this advocate guy. This is what I'm saying. This is what I'm trying to say. M then he'll tell me give me short points that I can tell the president so I'll write for him when rich is there he's an advocate the president ask me a secondary question he can't answer because he doesn't know he doesn't know so even with best intentions when he gets there so the opportunity cost is

48:52 like now the time by the time I teach him finance bill 2026 so because two things need to happen no there's you know we sometimes we we We we maybe yes we call out the appointing authority. Yeah. Which I think is important. But we need to call out we need to call out the people who are accepting the job. Yeah. Are you taking that job when when when you have been given chairman and you know you don't know this job you are you taking it but you see those guys unfortunately they you know what it is. Forget them. I agree. They need some integrity for them. But you know what needs to happen? The industry must reject it. So this guy is hopeless because they don't want him. They don't do this for bankers. They don't do this for lawyers. Those guys have said a don't appoint for us. It's going to be a lawyer. There's no filmmaker who's going to sit in the

49:53 Kenya Law School board. They're not letting us in there. Yeah. Yeah. But lawyers are coming to sit. are coming to Chile with us in field commission and we've got to say as an industry actually Z we don't want we respect that you've got this job and it's nothing personal but no and we won't engage with this we're not engaging with you ju I saw the engineers at least say something about Kenya roads board yes it's also ludicrous yeah this is an engineering technical thing you can't bring for us a person who doesn't have the knowledge because It's we've got to start saying no. There's got to be a letter that comes from us guys that says, "Mr. President, thank you for your consideration. We needed a new chairman, but this is not the right guy. It's not the guy." And we're going further. These are the guys we we know these guys. Pick from these guys. Pick these people. In fact, we're

50:49 nominating. We're nominating this guy. He's in your party. We're nominating this guy. He's in your party. We need a guy. And we have this conversation with KJ. I've really had it long time with KJ. I say KJ, how come you're not impacting this thing? Yeah, you call he's an insider. KJ is the chair of the ICT communications at so he's our guy. Yeah, I think culture is also there. So I kept saying no. Why aren't you influencing? Tell us to look for guys. M yeah it doesn't have to be Mimi governs I'm not there yet I know very many filmmakers who are there guy put for us a filmmaker so that when the conversation has been we are having the real conversation and also so that when we go to Kh you know when our film making being riches can when our guy is talking he can talk with the guy that side not is floating now we've taken an advocate yeah commissioner of

51:52 oaths when he reaches That said, he's not going to be able to talk. You know, there's a friend of mine, some things change and some things tend stay the same. You know, there's a p of mine who served as a board member. Yeah. In an ICT thing. Yeah. And um he was a company secretary in that board. Yeah. And um they had gone for a retreat in Mombasa. Mhm. So the guy the guy uh he says that after lunch he was walking on the beach and there was an older board member. He's also on the board of the same thing. That guy says to him as he says to [Laughter] him and that's the IC that guy is on the board is on the board of an ICT paraset a big one I won't mention which one it is but the board member is so clueless about what has happened. In fact, he's upset. He's upset. He's saying, "Hey guys, I've talked to computer today. I've not been able to follow." But

53:10 that's the challenge. So, okay. So, we we we're making progress. But now we have lamented enough. Those are enough lamentations for one day. So, let's come to what do you see? Let's contextualize the magnitude of this opportunity. Yeah. What do you see? What do you see about what's the opportunity? Let's dream a bit. You know, HIV did a study on the creative industry a few years ago and maybe their numbers are a bit old now, but that but they have also done the most complete survey. Yeah. And they said the creative industry was 5% of GDP in Kenya. Wow. 5 to 7%. Wow. For context, manufacturing in Kenya is 7%. So that's the potential. That's the potential. That's where we could be. We could actually be at h whenever people think about manufacturing they think about job creation money high revenue you know logistics driver that's the creative industry that's where we can

54:11 get uh to be I don't feel we are I feel like we are 5% but two things we are not being measured as 5% and then we're also not inhabiting the space as 5% we need to do those two because I think that's the potential When you think about how fast a multiplier the creative industry can be really the opportunity is really big and that's why I'm saying one of us must be making enough money to be the lender so that we can then start to catalyze this thing. Yes. On the road I'm sure someone's legs be broken. Yes. But that might be the catalyst that gets us to start rolling because we need to start gathering that momentum when you start going on there. And of course there are some pieces cuz if you think of arts education alone big potential and here's the thing that I'm always saying manufacturing for the creative industry. Mhm. For me that's where the money is. Mhm. What manufacturing of

55:09 what? Think of it creative industry. Immediately you start saying imagine pencils. Yes. Colored pencils, paper books, crayons, books, paint, brushes. M um tables, canvas, canvas, stages. Yeah. If you think of just the stone cold manufacturing of for the creative industry, if we could do that, that alone we could transform this game. Yeah. Yeah. Like through the roof. Watch the the guy who has Yes. Whoever Make a candle. Give Michael soy paint. Be the guy who gives them paint. That's the magic. If you can do that, yes, we importing paints. You you start a whole pigment industry. Yeah. And all those things that are needed for making of pigments are gotten from here. Yes. And then they bring finished product. So if to think about how do we make a guy and I'm not saying we start to be honest you have to just accept let's just do 10,000 lit of paint let's see how far

56:25 that goes to the quality and standard that the guys want 10k then we do 20 then we do 30 that's the opportunity and I feel we are always focused on the creator side of the economy because the creators are more visible yeah yeah they talk more but for me it's the just under the creators. Yes. The the logistics, the infrastructure guys, that's where we should be investing um for the next long term. That's why we should invest. Wow. You know, uh one thing I'm enjoying about this podcasting journey is the learning. Yeah. H sector by sector. M you know the different people we have had on the podcast and they you know they just open up the thinking of what maybe a lay man sitting who's not in your space what they can get to learn about the space but I hope it triggers some serious conversations even me I look for KJ I start working on him because if you're inside then help us

57:27 help us or or at least speak louder so that you can be heard yeah but Dan wow a pleasure having you on the podcast. Thank you for what you do for us over and above being a guest today, for providing you and your space. I see now at least we can see you have a bank account and and you're not alone because the other people who edit I I meet your people. So there's positive progress that has been made over the years. We have learned a lot. So thank you very much. And uh that episode 17, man, like a joke. We started here last year and now here we go. Yeah. So, Asante Sana, you really one given me a lot to think about and educated us about this space of the creative economy, but keep doing what you're doing. I love your space. I love to see how you guys are creative, how they the spaces keep evolving like that. Yeah. So, long may it last. Yeah. Yeah. So,

58:24 ladies and gentlemen, that brings us to the end of episode 17 of the African Do podcast. You can catch us on uh YouTube and Spotify and we look forward to many more such conversation. Thank you very much and have a good day. [Music]