David Naphtali Otieno — transcript

Green or Dream Investments Ltd

This transcript is generated automatically by YouTube and has not been checked by a person. It misspells names and mishears words, particularly around Kenyan English and company names, so read it as a guide to the conversation rather than a quotable record. Each timestamp opens the video at that moment.

0:05 Greetings, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back to episode 64 of the African Do podcast. Today, we go back into agri- agriculture has proven to be a very popular topic with our viewers, and so let's take a journey back into Africa agriculture. We feature today a young man called David Naftali Ocheno, and David runs Dream Dream or Dream Limited, is that?
Green or Dream Investments Limited.
or Dream Investments Limited, and he'll tell us more about it, but they're in the business of agriculture. David, welcome to the African Do podcast.
Thanks so much.
Excellent. So, David, um you you you've chosen a very interesting line, but let's first learn about you, David, the person, yeah? So, um where where were you raised? Where did you grow up in this Kenya of ours? And uh how do you find yourself? Tell us a bit about David prior to to starting your work and your career.

1:07
Mhm.
Yeah.
Uh so, I was born in um Nyandarua
Mhm.
County.
Yeah.
Uh by then, uh we didn't have the counties. It was Nyandarua and where I was is Chambini.
Yes.
But, I only stayed there for about less than 6 months, then I went to back home in Bondo.
Okay.
So, my home area is Bondo in Siaya County.
Yes.
And um yeah, I studied uh actually around class one in Bondo, then came to Kiambu.
Okay.
In Kiambu, I was uh that's how I spent most of my youth.
Your parents were working in that area?
Yeah, they were working in uh my mom was working in the area, the Kenya Forest.
Okay.
And um yeah, I was studying in actually in Kimende.
Yes.
Yeah.

1:50
Okay.
So, Kimende is where I spent most of my childhood.
Yes.
Uh from class one to class eight.
Yes.
Then I joined Meru High School back home. And then after Meru High School um I went to a teachers college.
Yes.
Yeah, cuz I could not raise money for the university.
Mhm. And which teachers college did you go to?
Egoji Teachers College.
Egoji?
Yeah, Egoji in Meru.
In in Meru, yes. I had an aunt who studied at Egoji way back in the '80s, yeah.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
So, my grandma was a teacher uh and she retired as a teacher.
Yes.
So, when um when I My mom could not raise money to pay uh the university for me uh I went looking for a job in Dubai. But when I was there, my grandma called.

2:38
Mhm.
And she was like, "David, I'm a teacher, retired as a teacher. And I can tell you teaching is good.
Yes.
So, just come. I'll pay school fees for you."
Your grandmother?
My grandmother.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah. Uh-huh.
And she was like, "David, come. I'll pay school fees for you. Study teaching, then don't just see it as the end. Use it as your stepping stone."
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, when I went to the TTC, um I think I had a revelation and I was telling my my college mates um a crocodile may stay in water for a hundred years, but it will never No, it's a log. A log can be in water for a hundred years, but it will never become a crocodile.
Agreed.
And I'm going to be with you guys for two years. And I'm not going to become a teacher.

3:29
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay. And so, uh what happens after Egoji?
So, after Egoji, uh I only taught for about three months.
Mhm.
Yeah. And for the three months, I think I was being paid 3,000 shillings a month.
Mhm.
And I saw that's not sustainable.
Mhm.
So, I decided to venture into photography.
Okay.
Yeah, which I did for about nine years.
What? Photography?
Photography.
Okay.
so I I used to run a photo studio down in Athi River.
Yes.
Yeah, a photo studio in the cyber.
Mhm.
And from what I got is what I used to like advance my studies.
Okay. So, photo studio in the I want a passport photo.
Yeah, passport photo, picture.
Picture, okay. Excellent, excellent. Okay.

4:14
So, many people just need a
9 years?
9 years.
Okay.
Yeah, so it's
But you raised enough funds and what what what you go and seek in university?
Uh um I first studied uh BCom.
Mhm.
Yeah, and then
Where where which university did you go?
Uh JKUAT.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
And then I went back to Kenya Institute of Development Studies and did a diploma in community development and social work.
Mhm.
And I specialized in project development.
Okay.
Yeah.
So, BCom community management, but now you're in Ugly. So, how where does the Ugly story begin?
Now, from around 2016, I think when now people started using the smartphones,
Yes.
the photography business started going down.

5:04
Mhm.
Yeah.
Mhm.
So, where I could make about 5,000 a day,
Mhm.
I started making less than 1,000 bob in a day.
Yes.
And I realized uh uh like things are moving so fast
Yes.
and I needed to do something else other than the photography.
Okay.
So, I had um um I was doing this printing business and when China Road and Bridge started, I printed them the first delivery notes.
Mhm.
Yeah.
Mhm.
So, with the delivery notes, the guys whom I had given me the job uh connected me to this uh Australian
Mhm.
Stewart Burden, he owns a farm in Athi River, and he needed some tax advice. Like filing the returns for the farm. And even for the staff. Yeah, so he contacted me one of the days and I visited him on a Saturday. Did the job perfectly. And then later on he was like, "David, would you like to work with us?"

6:09
[laughter]
So you're telling me you you met you met So your meeting with Stuart was was random.
Yeah, it was random cuz I remember the farm is in Game Ranch. And at Game Ranch, the manager there was a friend of mine. I knew him for some time and I'd even did a photography for the daughter's graduation. So while he was connecting me to Stuart, he knew me 100% cuz Stuart was looking for someone to help him tax consultancy. Yeah. And I knew how to cuz I was being there. I was helping people do the same thing. Oh
So you go to AusQuest, right? The farm is AusQuest.
Yeah, the farm is AusQuest. And by the time I'm going there, I had I had closed down my business. The photo studio. And I was when I told him I was a market.

7:06
[laughter]
To survive. Yeah, cuz I had to pay my bills. My son was young then. So I had to look for something to do. Yeah, and I can't say it was a good business. Okay.
But now you connect with Stuart Baden. The founder of AusQuest.
He's the founder and director of AusQuest. So I went in to help him with tax consultancy. And within two months, he told me he wants me to handle his accounts. Yeah. So after the two months, I started handling the accounts. And then uh he asked me whether I would be interested in managing the farm.
Mhm.
Yeah.
Mhm.
Cuz uh I found the office boring with the accounts and I could not stay in the office for even 2 hours. I just needed to be in the field.

8:00
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
And at the end of the day while doing the accounts, I said to myself, uh I can't manage what I don't know.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay. So, you wanted to you sought to learn how the farm runs.
Through keeping the books.
Yeah, keeping the books cuz now you can't be ordering an insecticide and you don't know what you're ordering and where it's going to be used.
Yes.
Or a fungicide or the fertilizers.
Okay.
So, I decided to learn farming
Mhm.
hands-on.
Mhm.
Yeah.
So, you went into the field.
I went into the field.
Tell us about that journey [laughter] of going into the field.
Yeah, the field is interesting cuz uh farming for us in Africa, everyone is a farmer in his own way. Uh even without telling me, I believe you're a farmer. You're doing you're farming.

8:45
You're farming something small somewhere. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yeah.
[clears throat]
So, um naturally, we are farmers. And I decided to learn more of farming cuz you're now managing 1,101 hectares.
Mhm. That's the size of the farm.
That is size of the farm.
1,101 hectares. Okay.
Yeah. And you're managing that but you've never managed an acre.
Yes.
two.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, beside that, I decided to do my own farming so that whatever I learn from House Quest, I also practice
Mhm.
in the village.
Okay.
So, I had about 4 hectares.
Where?
Down in Chumvi, Machakos County.
Yeah.
Okay. Your land.
My land.
So, you're learning here from House Quest

9:32
Yeah.
and in your time, you were practicing what you were learning.
Sure.
Tell us a bit about what were you growing at Usquead and just walk us through that journey in some detail so that we can connect with it well.
Sure. So, at Usquead we've grown more than 40 different crops, mostly fodder and pulses.
Okay.
And even wheat, barley, chickpeas.
How about how about Majakos Junction up
yeah.
[laughter]
Yeah, wheat grows very well.
What?
Yeah.
Okay.
[laughter]
Okay.
Yes, we've grown chickpeas, we've grown green grams,
Yes.
beans,
Okay.
we tried grain sorghum,
Yes.
and forage sorghum.
Okay.
Yeah, so we later on specialized in forage sorghum

10:19
Yes.
cuz it solved those that gap
Okay.
of supplying fodder to the local community.
Okay.
Uh cuz that area is dry,
Yes.
but for us it's only dry in their minds.
Okay.
Yeah.
And let's First of all, I think at this point it's good to say when I met you because I met you on the sidelines of Kenya's first feed and fodder conference.
Sure.
Yeah, where we got a chance to meet and talk. But I think what what what captured my my attention was one, Usquead at the time was you like you said you specialized in forage sorghum. So, maybe tell us what forage sorghum is. And then you said that you were selling what was it? Silage.
Silage, yeah.
Yeah, you were making silage and selling silage.

11:08
Mhm.
And that's that that's on a large portion of the land, yeah? So, tell us a bit about this. And I remember one of the things that stuck out to me then was the fact that you were in an area that in Kenyan terms is considered very dry, yeah? You were not using irrigation, yeah? You were farming on rain-fed agriculture. So, tell us a bit about that journey so that we can understand and the numbers behind it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the fodder that you're growing, the forage sorghum. I we've grown different varieties. And when we say forage sorghum, it's sorghum specifically for animal feed.
Okay.
Yeah.
And what's the difference between forage sorghum and regular?
The other one is grain sorghum. So when you go to breweries, they do contract people to grow grain sorghum for malting.

11:57
Okay.
And now we are growing forage sorghum which is for animal feed.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
We chose forage sorghum cuz sorghum inherently drought tolerant.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
So for grain sorghum we could not grow profitably in Machakos because of the birds. There's a time we tried and the quelea birds came in millions.
In millions and finished your grain sorghum, yeah.
Yeah, so we learned the hard way and at House of Crops we say if there's a crop you're not going to grow is a bad crop, b i r d. Any crop that is going to be attacked by birds, we're not going to grow that anymore.
Yeah.
so we decided to go to forage sorghum which is for animal feed. And we do make silage out of that cuz again we found we were looking at the best way of preserving that fodder. If you would preserve it as hay, you're losing on your nutritional value. You're also losing on your on [snorts] your quantity.

12:59
Mhm.
If you dry your fodder today, it can be a ton today, in 3 months it can be 300 kilos because you're losing on your dry matter.
Okay.
Yeah, so for fodder, we started growing fodder back in 2016 on a few hectares.
Yes.
And this year we are on 575 hectares.
Okay.
Over 400
575 hectares.
Hectares. And they are going to build that into silage, sell to both our dairy farmers and feed lotters.
So for the sake of Kenyans, you know Kenyans them they know acres, you know? So 575 acres is what? 2.4?
Yeah, 2.45
yeah. 2.45 is the conversion. So you're talking about you're saying you're doing 575 um hectares. So that's over 1,200 acres.
Sure.
Yeah, which you're growing forage sorghum. And this forage sorghum you then silage it. Tell us what is silage.

14:01
Uh silage is um fermenting fodder into an anaerobic condition where you don't have any oxygen getting into your fodder. So for I you've seen farmers making silage like pit silage. There's some who made who make a surface silage where they just make above the ground. But for us we are doing it in bales. Yeah, and our bales are about 500 to 700 kilos a bale.
Per bale?
Yeah.
But 1,200 acres that must be quite a lot of silage.
a lot and
buying it?
At the end of the day we can't meet the demand.
You can't meet your demand.
Yeah, even if we grew the whole farm under fodder we can't meet the demand.
And you're not growing the whole farm. Like half the farm.
Uh even a a third.

14:50
A third of the farm.
Yeah.
Okay. So let's speak a bit about this customer because you are now um you now are in AusQuest as an in an advisory capacity. But let's speak about a bit about this farmer. Who is coming to to Machakos to buy silage?
Uh we're selling to small scale farmers.
Mhm. And where where do the customer where is the customer base? Where are they coming from?
Previously we've seen farmers come from as far as uh like Kiambu,
Mhm.
Kilifi,
From Kilifi?
Homa Bay,
Mhm.
Mombasa,
Mhm.
uh the whole of Central Kenya, Meru, Nyeri, Murang'a, Mhm. Kiambu,
Yeah.
We've seen people coming from uh Limuru, Nakuru, like we've got customers from all over.

15:43
That's all over the country.
All over the country. Initially, we thought we are only going to supply within Machakos and Kajiado.
Mhm.
But later on, we realized that when drought hits, you get calls from everywhere.
Mhm.
Yeah.
And so, at that quantity, there's So, there's there's there's still scope for some other Kenyans because there's one thing that happens in that area, the area you described where the Oscquest farm is, there's a lot of land. You I mean, your your your boss at Oscquest was not the only owner of large tracts of land there. So, this is something that can be done.
Yeah, something that can be done. There's a lot of land lying idle.
Mhm.
But then, people are suffering.

16:26
So, tell me about you said that it that the land is a statement you mentioned. Said the land is dry in their minds. Let flesh that out for me a bit. What do you mean by that statement?
Uh historically, you find people just farm for the sake of it.
Mhm.
They say "I shall be planting my India and my maragwe and I will get what I will get."
Mhm.
That's what I will get.
Mhm.
Yeah. Why? Because uh they believe that area is dry and you can't grow any crops sustainably,
Mhm.
uh maybe under irrigation.
Okay.
Yeah.
And what are you doing differently? Because you're growing silage.
For us, we are practicing a regenerative agriculture, mostly known as conservation agriculture.

17:07
Okay.
And that's uh what makes a difference from uh Oscquest
Mhm.
to a a small holder right next to the farm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Tell us about this regenerative agriculture practices.
Yes, regenerative agriculture we have before principles where one is minimum tillage. So, you don't uh turn your soil every now and then cuz you end up exposing your your soil moisture.
that plowing you used to see with a tractor, yeah, that is digging the ground. You don't do that.
Uh we do plowing, but minimum.
Okay.
Minimum tillage. You can plow like once in a 6 7 years.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
In fact, I always tell people when God put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden,
Yes.

17:53
these guys didn't have a tractor.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
And I tell people a tractor is the devil's tool.
Okay.
Yeah, cuz that's what's eating into our our yields.
Yes.
The moment you're turning your soil, you're exposing your moisture and through vaporization you're losing it.
Mhm.
Yeah.
So, you don't you you you're you're you you practice minimum tillage.
Practice a minimum tillage cuz uh I yeah, when you till your land, you're exposing your soil moisture to the hot sun.
Mhm.
So, you lose it all.
Okay.
Uh we practice maximum soil cover.
Okay.
So, when you harvest your food or your crops, you take back the residues to act as soil blanket.
Okay.

18:39
Yeah.
You mean the leftover, the whatever is the residue
the that's the residue or the trash. Instead of taking it out, [clears throat]
Mhm.
you leave it to act as a soil blanket.
Okay.
So, it will be protecting your soil from the hot sun.
Mhm.
Uh it will also be increasing your organic matter.
In the soil.
Which you also need to help you hold as much moisture as you can.
Okay.
increasing your fertility
Okay.
by by just [snorts] maintaining the soil cover.
Okay.
Yeah, weed control.
Okay.
And we say weeds are the greatest robbers of moisture.
Mhm.
Yeah. When you leave weeds in your farm, what they do, they're just pumping water. They're water pumps, pumping water into the atmosphere.

19:25
Yes.
Yeah, so if you practice weed control in your farm, uh first you're reducing your cost of production cuz you're not be weeding when you have a crop like in crop.
Mhm.
Secondly, you are saving as much moisture as you can cuz it's not being utilized when you're not farming.
Weed control.
Yeah.
So, tell me that that's a very technical term for a non-agricultural mind.
Mhm.
So, what [clears throat] what what goes into weed control?
Uh for weed control, you can you can employ different mechanisms cuz we have chemical, we have mechanical, and physical.
Okay.
Yeah, so you can get into your farm and weed manually.
Physically, yeah.
Yeah. You see any weed, you just approach it. And it's very easy cuz if you leave like a a blackjack plant today,

20:13
Mhm.
you let it sit.
Mhm.
Within 2 3 months, you can imagine how many blackjack plants will be having in your fields.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you can just uh control your weeds manually or physically by approaching. You can use agro or agri-agrochemicals.
Yes.
Yeah, just to spray and kill the weeds.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
You can also do the when you're doing minimum tillage, when the weeds are uh young, you can just uh plow them and they'll [clears throat] just dry up.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Mhm.
So, now I think I'm going to ask you for the sake of the audience to understand this journey because I think it's rather important.
Yeah.
Um one, we're in a feed we're in a fodder deficit country, yeah? But you're now telling us that in areas the climate of which we have lots of in the country, that it's possible to be productive in the production of water, yeah? So, maybe walk us through the journey, yeah? Just for the sake of our understanding of from land that is like what your neighbors have, yeah? To harvest. Walk us through that step-by-step journey of forage sorghum.

21:30
So, from land preparation
Land land preparation I've bought a farm. I have some money. I've bought some 500 hectares somewhere. I call you David, come I want to do this.
Sure.
Yeah.
So, if you have your 500 acres, the first thing you need to do is fencing.
Yes.
Yeah, cuz you have to keep people from uh walking through your fields or even keep animals away.
Yes.
And the last principle I didn't talk about of conservation agriculture is control the traffic.
Okay.
When you control traffic Most people believe traffic is only on the highways, but you can also control traffic in your on the farm. Cuz you have specific paths where your vehicles or tractors are using. You have specific paths where people uh are walking or while you're scouting in the field you can go in, but don't you don't need to have roads in the farms. You don't need to have animals coming into your fields. So, you acquire your

22:31 land the first thing is fencing.
Okay.
After fencing you can do your clearance and you might have trees that you don't they are where they are not needed. So, you just do your clearance for trees and shrubs and then you plow.
Mhm.
Yeah.
Okay.
After plowing you can wait for the rains. The weeds will germinate. You start your weed control program. Uh when you're doing that you're also preparing your land for planting. Yeah. Okay. planting our forage sorghum take about 60 days to get to harvesting.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, you plant, what you'll be doing is a control of mostly pests and diseases. You can also do in-crop weed control
Mhm.
so that you don't feed the animals to the some plants that are poisonous. You need a clean fodder.

23:23
Mhm.
Uh so, when you get to harvesting, our process is mowing, where you come in with a mower. You cut down your fodder, you let it wilt for some time, maybe up to about uh 40 to 60% moisture, cuz you don't need it too wet.
Okay.
Otherwise, you'll be selling people water.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Uh you let it wilt for about
And that takes how many days?
About 24 to 72 hours, depending on the
So, you cut, you mow the forage sorghum, and you leave it on
You leave it on the ground.
It's hit by the sun, and it it dries out.
Naturally.
Okay.
Yeah. And then, now you come in with a rake, if you have to,
Mhm.
just to reduce your cost of harvesting, cuz for a tractor to go through every row that has been mowed,

24:11
Mhm.
it's it's expensive. But, to save on your fuel, you can put two rows into one by raking.
Okay.
Yeah.
And you rake manually or mechanically?
No, mechanically.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
You rake mechan- All these processes are done mechanically.
Yes.
Yeah, and it's very important, cuz uh I think in class I think class where we are being taught about making work easier.
Yes. Yes.
Yeah, and mechanization makes everything easy.
So, you now rake, and then you come and bale.
You come and bale.
Yeah.
After baling, we wrap.
Mhm.
So, after wrapping, you give it about 3 weeks, 3 to 3 weeks to 3 to 8 weeks
Okay.
to get it ensiled.
Okay.
And it will be ready to sell for consumption. Yeah.

25:01
Okay. Sounds like a straightforward process.
Yeah, it's a straightforward but there are some nitty-gritties that you should be very keen on cuz you've seen people instead of making silage they make manure. Because of getting the details wrong. Yeah.
What would happen in in an incident like that where you say you think you're making silage but they're making manure?
Yeah, cuz if you're if you're letting air getting into your into your fodder, you're not ensiling it.
It's it's decomposing.
It's decomposing.
Yes.
Yeah, [snorts] if you have too much water, our water follows a gravity so it will go to the bottom of the bale and it will end up rotting.
Okay.
Which you can't consume. You end up using it as manure.

25:46
Okay. Okay. You've raised so many issues. Let me start first with your mechanization, which is where what you brought up. Yeah? So [clears throat] in in in the Us Quest Farm, which was the place where you learned your your your your trade, yeah? It's very heavily mechanized, yeah? I think if if I recall, uh tell us how big you've told us how big the farm is. It's 1,100 hectares, yeah?
101.
101 hectares, yeah? That's about 2,000
750.
750 uh acres. How many staff?
Seven staff full-time.
Full-time staff, seven, yeah? And how many casuals do you have coming in there?
At times we have one.
One
One casual or two. And at times like at the moment we are harvesting beans. Yeah. And yesterday we had around 208 casuals.

26:51
They harvesting the beans?
Harvesting the beans, yeah.
Which is contractual labor. They harvest [clears throat] and then they go.
Sure.
But in terms of your full-time staff on your farm, there?
Yes, seven.
Seven?
Yeah.
Then, let's speak a bit about the mechanization, yeah? [clears throat] That that capital investment for that kind of mechanization is quite heavy. How is the output on a returns perspective?
Um it's neither here nor there,
Yes.
but at the end of the day, if you look at uh the amount of money you're spending on uh on manual labor, like on contractual labor, versus what you're using on equipment, you'll find uh that you're saving a lot. And it's not only about saving, it's about the quality of work,

27:36
Mhm.
the consistency,
And the quality of output, too.
Yeah, and the quality of output, and also uh the time that it takes you to complete a task.
Yes.
Like if you had to plant today, you're planting 1,000 hectares, and you want to do it manually, by the time you finish planting, you'll be in the in the short rains.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
And you want to plant within the shortest time possible,
Okay.
you get a uniform depth, so that you get uniform germination, and at the end of the day, be getting uniform uh maturity.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, uh mechanization uh is the key, more so when you're in uh in this situation of large-scale farming, but for us, uh we are not fully mechanized, cuz we are we are awake to the to the fact that people need to to work, or to get some job, the CSR, and we do it uh uh effectively. Like now, we are harvesting beans. We don't just harvest mechanically. We are getting people uproot and windrow. Windrow is just putting on a

28:46 straight line, so that a bean harvester can come picking.
Mhm.
So, if you had to do it using a combine, it just means you need one person
Mhm.
driving the combine and maybe the chaser tractor.
Mhm.
Those are only two people.
Mhm.
But now, we are we are employing up to 700 people
Mhm.
at harvesting.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Even at weeding, we instead of spraying
Yes.
uh using a herbicide, at times we call in people to come and weed physically.
Mhm.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, that at least we can give back.
to your environment.
Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.
So, David, you get all this learning, yeah, in your time at Housequest, you clearly had a good relationship with them because even when you set up Greenod Greenod Dream Investments, yeah, which is your company.

29:34
For sure.
Um you still remain as an advisor and consultant to them, yeah. So, tell us about Greenod Dream. When did it start? How did it start? And what do you do?
Yeah, there came to a time after working at Housequest for about 9 years that I realized I needed to expand.
Yes.
And maybe help even more people
Mhm.
to set up their farms
Yes.
and be productive.
Yes.
And by then, I started receiving calls from all over. Like I've gone to Somalia to help a farmer set up about 250 hectares.
Yes.
I've been in Ethiopia
Yeah.
to help a farmer set up about 4,000 hectares.
Yes.
Yeah. And other countries. So, at that time, people called and they were like, "David, we really need you to help us in this. We need you to help us in this." But uh there's no way I was going to do it while uh at Housequest.

30:30
Yes.
Yeah. [clears throat]
Mhm.
And um the directors, they used to attend any party. Other than being my bosses, they are they are my friends.
Yes.
Yeah, like very good friends.
Yes.
And even now when they call me like David, we need this done. I'll do it right away cuz they have that respect we've maintained and we also have that friendship, the bond.
Yes.
And I take them as my family.
Yes.
And I tell them house quest in you money.
Okay.
Yeah.
And of course they've given you knowledge.
Yeah, they given it that knowledge. Yeah, I've grown so much.
Mhm.
I've grown so much and even learned from them cuz Stuart Biden came to Kenya as a scholar.

31:14
Yes.
Yeah, and the work of a scholar is just like um we'll we'll call him a prophet.
Yes.
He comes to speak the word or to preach the word. So for him he came to preach dry land farming.
Yes.
Which I embraced, learned and now I'm ready to practice and also help other people benefit from that.
So one thing that GreenO Dream does is advisory.
Right?
Yeah.
You help farmers.
Mhm.
Um um plan and establish their farms.
Yeah, we do agricultural consultancy.
Agricultural consultancy.
Yeah, and we do that from your land acquisition, setup.
Okay.
Uh setting up your business, equipment uh selection. And we can we go to the point of going to the ground to see the equipment that you want to buy and advise this is the right equipment or not. Uh we do uh land preparation, uh planting, uh up to harvesting and even post harvesting management.

32:20
Okay.
We do also connect farmers to off-takers
Yes.
through the networks that have we've established for the last few years.
Okay.
Yeah.
So who are like and and in addition to that I think you also have a small farm of your own.
Sure.
GreenO Dream where you farm.
Yeah.
Yeah, tell us a bit about that.
Yeah, I'm farming down in uh Kibwezi. About 92 acres.
Okay.
Yeah.
92 acres.
92 acres chose Kibwezi cuz first is uh dry land. And want to show people what's possible there.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
Uh this year I had a crop of uh pigeon peas.
Yes.
I've grown a watermelon.
Mhm.
Uh onions, okra,
Mhm.
maize,
Mhm.
green grams.

33:04
Yes.
Yeah, we are trying all these crops.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Good. From the learning that you got from your time
From the learning and also we also telling.
Yes.
Uh we do a lot of trials to see what will work and what won't work.
Tell me. Um soil testing.
Mhm.
Where does it feature in your in your world?
Uh for soil testing, uh we have a partners like uh Cropnuts.
Cropnuts, yeah.
Yeah, cuz uh before you do your cropping, you need to do your crop soil test. Yeah, which is key. Yeah, so soil testing is uh very important. And uh when you want to grow a crop, you do your soil test so that you know the kind of inputs that you're going to uh be using for your nutrition mostly. Yeah.

33:54
Mhm.
Wow. Uh so David, uh from um from running a studio in Arusha, you're now become a full-scale um regional uh agricultural consultant, yeah?
Mhm.
Um and a farmer in your own right.
For sure.
So you have a good pulse on where we are agriculture agriculturally, yeah?
Sure.
And I think because you are you you're focused on dryland agriculture, yeah? You are you you're a great person to talk to because you're doing you're making productive areas which are not as productive as they could be, as we have shown. So, maybe share with us a bit of your learning in that regard. What have you seen? Where do you see the the market at the moment, our dry land areas? And what is the magnitude of uh

34:50 that opportunity in your opinion?
Uh from what I have seen and even learned uh the last 20 years all our our country is turning into dry lands.
Mhm.
Yeah, you can bear me witness. Central Kenya, which used to be a food basket, is no longer a food basket.
Yes.
And uh I think the studies are showing currently we are sitting at 90% of Kenyan land being arid.
What what do you define as arid? Maybe let's start there.
You look at the amount of rainfall that you're receiving in an area. If it's below average.
Mhm.
Yeah.
And in a Kenyan context, what is that what what is that number? When we say if you receive below X number of X amount of rain annually, you're you're dry land.

35:41
Yeah, in our country currently
Yeah.
uh you you realize the rainfall patterns erratic.
They've become erratic, yes.
And like last year Kibwezi area used to receive about 200 mm annually.
Mhm.
Last year we received 680.
Okay.
mm annually.
Threefold.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's some areas like in Western Kenya last year they received more than 1,500 mm and they were unable to harvest their crops.
Mhm.
Uh in some seasons they don't receive that amount, they receive maybe 500 to 750. And most of the areas currently are receiving below 300 mm. And remember that's annually.
Yes.
So that's not sustainable for our farming enterprise.
Mhm.
Yeah, and that's why you see most of the places are moving into irrigation to mitigate the effects of drought.

36:35
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's why I was saying our country currently, we are at 90% arid and our food production is going down.
Mhm.
And that's why we
importing
a lot of food.
Mhm.
Yeah.
Mhm.
But there is potential in these areas if we can practice a state If we can do sustainable farming. And that's by embracing uh practices that can uh help us mitigate the effects of climate change cuz climate change is here with us and it's not that it started today.
Mhm.
Yeah, it started long ago maybe '60s, '70s. It's only that
uh we are feeling the effects.
Yeah, we are feeling the effects now.
Okay.
But as much as we are feeling the effects, I'm 100% sure we can mitigate these effects.

37:24
Mhm.
Cuz other than farming, there are so many practices that we can embrace like even planting trees.
Mhm.
What is happening currently with urbanization, you find forests are being cleared so they can come up with uh um these structures. Yeah, buildings everywhere. I remember when I was young from Naivasha to Nairobi, you could see crops growing beside the roads. What do you see now?
Yes.
Yeah. So we are cutting down these trees. They call it deforestation.
Mhm.
We can decide to come back and do afforestation. We can practice these sustainable agricultural practices and see whether we are going to bridge the gap.
Okay.
Cuz uh as as at now where we are, if we continue the same trend, we are not going to be food sufficient

38:20
Okay.
uh anytime soon. But for the dry lands, uh, we've proved it's possible and that you can farm in these areas. Why don't we embrace these sustainable practices so that we can, uh, meet our food demand.
Okay.
Yeah. And it's food and feeds for animals.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay. So, let's speak a bit about farm size.
Mhm.
Yeah. In this environment that we are in, yeah, where we're saying that these dry lands, you've you've you've you've shown that dry lands can be uh, viable, yeah?
Mhm.
If [clears throat] I want to go into farming, yeah?
Mhm.
Seriously,
Yeah.
uh, and commercially, not a telephone farmer for fun, you know? I want to do it as a commercial enterprise. What what would you advise me? I've done nothing.

39:13
Mhm.
I've not bought any land, you know? Um, but you understand also, uh, because of these developments that you're talking about, land has become quite expensive because people are measuring the value of the land not agriculturally,
Mhm.
but based on the number of flats or homes they can build there.
Yeah.
[clears throat]
So, I would like to go as far out, maybe near water. But what would you advise me? I come to you and say, "David, I want to farm."
Mhm.
Uh, Mimi mtu wa uh, city, lakini I want to go and find a place. Uh, what would you advise me? First from a size perspective and then for uh, you know, should I be close to a river? And and just assume that I'm your client now and I've come to to ask you.

39:56
Yeah.
Yeah.
If you want to farm, first it will depend on your financial muscle.
Yes.
Cuz uh, like personally, I really want to farm.
Yes.
And I want to farm 10,000 acres.
But you don't have.
[laughter]
So, let's assume, just for the purpose of this discussion, which is far from the reality, that my finances are not an issue.
Yeah.
I have the resources.
Mhm.
Yes. Now I've come to you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, anything from 10 acres going up cuz uh if you're well financially, you look at um land, what's the cost of your land?
Yes.
And you realize the cost of land will depend on amount of rainfall that that area receives.
Mhm.
Yeah. So, if you go to Mandera today, an acre how much do you think it will be?

40:43
Yes.
As compared to Kiambu.
Mhm.
Yeah.
Mhm.
So,
[clears throat]
uh sometime back I learned when people are selling land, they they are not actually selling land. They're selling rainfall.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
And that's why again, if you go to an area near uh water source like near river, that land is expensive.
Okay.
As compared to land that is uh
So, let's simplify this question this this discussion and say now I'm I am buying 200 acres.
Mhm.
In where you are. I'm following you, David, to Kibwezi. [laughter] So, I've come to Kibwezi. I'm next to you. 200 acres. Nothing. I've never farmed a day in my life. What what How do you advise me?
Yeah, if I come to your 200 acres, the first thing we'll do a feasibility study just to see what's possible and what's not possible.

41:36
Okay.
Uh we'll do trials of different crop cuz uh uh [snorts] in your mind, you'll be saying, "David, I want to grow this. This is what I want to to grow if it's green grams for instance, we have different varieties of green grams. If it's beans, we have different varieties, even for maize. So, what you need to do first is uh a trial.
Mhm.
Yeah, cuz uh the problem with farmers is uh if you see David is growing um green grams and he's getting about 500,000 an acre, he'll be like, "Wow, David is making good I also want to grow green grams." without determining whether your land is good for green grams or not. So, the crop varieties the crop variety trials for your farm is key so that you determine which crops you're going to grow. And then you can start with

42:31 10 acres so that you can prove the concept after you know this crop can do here. Start small.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mhm.
Start with your 20 or 10 acres, then expand progressively.
Mhm.
Cuz there's also a risk of going 200 acres into green grams, but there are some small lessons that the intricacies that you need to learn.
Yeah.
So, learn while you're doing it in small scale.
Yeah.
Then after learning, you can implement what you've learned in large scale.
Okay.
Cuz again, we do tell farmers, "If you can't manage one acre, you can't manage 10."
Mhm.
And if you can't manage 10, you can't manage 100.
Yes.
Yeah.
Mhm.
So, start small and grow progressively cuz also you can't climb the tree from the top.

43:17
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, after your trials, maybe 1 2 years, we prove this is possible, then now we go big scale. Like we get on to the job, grow as much green grams or beans or maize as you can.
Availability of this mechanization is big too.
Yeah.
Locally.
Mhm.
Uh to the best of my knowledge, we're not manufacturing any tractors
Mhm.
locally. But they're available from the the the various distributors. Machines that scale, you know, the large ones for the very large farms, the medium-sized one. All all of them are available locally.
Yeah, they're available locally.
Yeah.
And at the end of the day, you also don't need to to buy.
Mhm.
You can hire.

44:04
Okay.
Yeah.
Tell us a bit about the hiring. Are there people who are available to hire. You can hire from us by your needs.
Yeah.
So, you don't have to make a capital investment
No.
to to do that in bulk.
Yeah. That's what I was saying, you can grow progressively. Cuz also you want uh you want return on your investment. Once you've saved a few coins, you you cannot say I want to buy my own tractor. Yeah, like personally I'm doing 100 acres.
Yes.
I don't have a tractor.
Okay.
Yeah. I don't have any equipment.
Yes.
But when I need I can just hire and I get the work done.
Okay.
Yeah.
And the hiring is available from the area where
It's available, though not reliable. That's where the problem is, the reliability. Yeah. So, eventually you find that uh you need to have your own equipment so that you can do whatever you want when you want to do it.

44:54
Okay.
Yeah.
So, David, even though I'm going to ask you a bit about livestock farming, even though you're not a livestock farmer,
Yeah.
you have become a supplier to livestock farmers by your experience
For sure.
in preparing silage. So, let's speak about the state of live- livestock farming. I think for me what is interesting is that uh you are doing this in Machakos, yeah? In a part of Machakos that is considered rather dry, yeah?
Yeah.
And yet we hear that there's a shortage of of we have inadequate um uh feed for our animals, yeah? We also had a really serious drought which we are coming out of. I think it was a couple of years ago.
Yeah, 2023.
So, maybe tell us a bit about where we lost I think Kenya lost over 2 million animals or that's the number I had in the press. So, maybe tell us about your views on livestock, the opportunity that is there.

45:54
Mhm.
because everyone wants to keep some animals, but you are now supplying silage to to to farmers all over the country. What [clears throat]
are your views about uh the state of our livestock agriculture?
Um for livestock industry, what we need is um um feed preservation.
Mhm.
Like now, if you drive all over the country after the rains, there's grass everywhere.
Mhm.
But within no time, we don't have that grass cuz it will have died and decomposing.
Mhm.
And that's because as uh as a country, we are not looking so deep into harvesting this fodder, having it into we can have aggregation centers where that fodder can be stored until that time that it's uh needed. Cuz when now we are into the drought and you go left, right, and center looking for fodder, you not find it. And one thing I tell farmers, we have a very a very short memory.

46:56
Mhm.
Yeah.
Mhm.
Cuz uh for sure, we have two seasons a uh of rain in a year. And from where you are sitting, uh you can rightly tell me if from now up to about October, we are not going to receive any rainfall.
Mhm.
Yeah, cuz it's a it's a cycle. It happens every year. So, if we can harvest as much fodder as possible during the rain season, we can be fodder sufficient. And if we have a deficit, it will be maybe for a maybe a month. Yeah, and it won't be as bad as it were in 2023. Cuz uh when livestock uh were dying, uh for me, I was receiving calls from all over. David, where can I get feeds? Where can I get feeds? But you realize these are areas as you said, we have us lands that are idle, but we still have uh grasses that are growing in those lands.

47:57
Mhm. Why can't we harvest and preserve? Cuz now it's only a few people who've taken up the the role and they're doing it commercially, but they can't meet the demand. But if we can have a collective responsibility where even if you have your 10, 20, or 100 acres and you're not using it, why can't you let people get in and harvest the grass in the rain season, preserve it, and it will have them in the in the drought season. Yeah.
Then David, to wrap up, let's speak a bit about people and talent. Yeah? Um I was quite impressed with your with your statistics from Ask West. You know, where you were saying that's a large farm, but seven permanent staff.
[clears throat]
Maybe speak to us a bit about Kenya, its agriculture, and the availability of the talent to unlock this agricultural potential that you have. Even though you are I would say you're an agriculturalist by circumstance more than by training. You know, you've now become an expert, but you're an expert by circumstance. An expert of doing. But tell us about the market when if like using my example of our 200 acres,

49:13
[clears throat]
if I want to find the talent, what's the availability of it locally?
Yeah. From my side, it's not about the talent, it's about the passion. Yeah, cuz if you want to farm like we've had so many farmers who are failing and because they're getting into farming to make money. It's not a passion. So, if you try today and you fail, you will say no, farming is uh farming is not something you need to go into. Um there are people who will try today, they succeed, and then the next time they fail, they just say, "No, I can't burn my fingers anymore." But you need to have that passion. Because you uh you learn every day. And with farming if you're doing dry land farming, you only have two seasons to learn in a year. So within that season, you need to learn as much as you can. If you are irrigating your land you can learn a lot from the different cycles that you're growing your crops. But coming back to your question about um the talent, we talk about the passion.

50:21 Because we've seen people going to the universities and they study agriculture. If you give them a job to manage a farm, they'll say David I've seen about four people who've come back to me. I've connected them to a farm. I tell them you uh we have this guy looking for a farm manager. You're graduate in agriculture. Why don't you take up this job? 3 months later, they come back and say, "David, I can't do this." Yeah. So we need um uh we need to like to be keen in our agricultural system. I also encourage the youth. Personally, I've undertaken training youth and I've trained about a hundred and five youth from NYS. Who've gone to study agriculture. They come out thinking they know but they can't tell you, "David, we want to gain more experience from you."

51:13
[snorts]
And I walk the journey with them for about three, four months. And out of that, I've got like uh six whom I've got placement for them in big farms. And they're doing great. So it's about passion and also encouraging the the young generation to embrace farming. Because our populations are growing. Yeah, by 2050 uh our population will be almost maybe about uh 50 million or so in Kenya. All these people need to eat. Our lands um uh like we experiencing land degradation every day. Where are we going to get our foods from if you are not embracing agriculture? And for you they should know the future millionaires and billionaires will be farmers, not doctors, not engineers. So it's about time that people like me and other farmers encourage the youths and even our kids. Let them grow knowing that there are returns in farming. I visited a school and kids don't know where milk

52:22 comes from. They tell you it's from the supermarket. Yeah. You tell people where maize comes from they don't know. I say Yeah, they don't know how maize grows. So if we can instill this knowledge into them so that they can growing up knowing there's um there's future in farming. Our country will become self-sufficient.
Excellent. David, first of all, what a fabulous story. I think I assumed when I met you that you're a graduate of an agricultural college somewhere. But to hear your story first hand has been quite a privilege. So thank you very much for that.
You're welcome.
So I I think you're doing God's work if I dare say so myself. So congratulations for that. And allow me to give you an opportunity to just tell our audience where they can find you, Greenodream Investments Limited should they wish to seek your agricultural consultancy services or wish to talk to you about what their their their agricultural needs. Where can you be found and how can the people connect with you?

53:30
Sure. So if you want to reach us at Greenodream, you can reach us on 0726-53-53-07. You can also send us an email greenodream@gmail.com. You can reach us on our website uh, www.greenodream.com. And you can also reach out on our Facebook pages here on Twitter. We are on Instagram. You can get us there. Um, you're welcome to come so we can walk together the journey of uh, agri. Thank you.
David, what a phenomenal story. I'm just smiling as I think about the impact that you have and I feel really really privileged to have gotten to meet you at the meeting for the conference and I'm glad you accepted to come on to our podcast and share this knowledge that you've gained.
Yeah.
Yeah. So ladies and gentlemen, that was episode 64 of the African Do Podcast. I would thank you very much for joining us. Please do follow us and subscribe to our channel on YouTube and follow us on our social media handles on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook and you'll find us there and we can talk more about excellent Africans executing excellently. I hope you enjoyed that foray into agriculture with David Naftali Ochanda and we look forward to

54:54 having you in the next episode. Asante sana.
[music]