Dr. Wanjiru Stuhler — transcript

She Sells Smiles. But First She Had to Build a Business to Deliver Them | Dr. Wanjiru Stuhler Ep. 54

This transcript is generated automatically by YouTube and has not been checked by a person. It misspells names and mishears words, particularly around Kenyan English and company names, so read it as a guide to the conversation rather than a quotable record. Each timestamp opens the video at that moment.

0:05 Greetings ladies and gentlemen and welcome to episode 54 of the African do podcast. Today for the first time we delve into the world of the medical world and we are very privileged to have with us Dr. Wangroa um proprietor of Orthodontics. Dr. Waniro is a consultant orthodontist and we'll discuss more about Dr. Wiro welcome. Thank you very very much, Leonard. I'm happy to be here.
Excellent. So, um maybe let's go back. Um I find stories about where you started quite interesting. So, let's go back to academia. you you are living I would say I think most in a Kenyan context most parents are over the moon when their kids say that they want to become doctors you know because it's the epidome of societal ranking and I think it's a global thing not just a Kenyan thing so tell us about your early days what drove you to choose medicine

1:09 as your path and where did you go as early as the memory serves you Yes, actually as as far I can remember I always wanted to be a doctor.
However, which kind of doctor came later in life.
Okay.
Right. So I grew up uh in East Lance in Huruma.
Mhm.
Uh a very happy simple childhood. I was born in G. Yes.
And I passed there a lot of times. And every time I'm passing there, I'm thinking e was born there. So I feel some kind of way when I'm passing. Yes. Nostalgia. Especially as a parent, you know how it is when the babies come into the world and they grow and they start having their own minds.
So yeah, that's generally uh about like when where I was born, where I grew up. I went to school, primary school in Kenya, Moy Girl. Uh uh what is it called? Marion School.

2:02
Okay.
I went to secondary school in Moy Girls. Yeah. We call it Cabs Nairobi. Cabsira
back there. Yes.
Uh and uh after that a few years later I went to Germany and I stayed there 18 years.
Wow.
And I have been back 7 years or so.
Mhm.
And uh the rest
So your journey to Germany was to study.
It not really. It was uh to look for ways to study.
Okay.
So it wasn't that straightforward thing. My parents have looked for a university. It was more of like uh go find a way.
Okay.
Yes. And that is what I did.
Okay.
So until I could go to med school, it took me almost five years.
Okay.
Yes. And
what were you doing in those early years? Just in the hustle.

2:53
Yes. In the hustle. Plus
um in in in Germany, you look a lot in the yellow pages. Like when you're looking for a job, it's very straightforward. It's not like in Kenya where you need to know the right people. Sometimes you need connections. Someone has to refer you. In Germany, you just open the yellow pages and you look for a job.
Okay.
So that's how I looked for a job.
Okay.
So I was my paperwork was not ready to start studying in the university.
Okay.
However, I looked for like a a TV traininee uh uh poly techchnic kind of thing where I studied dental assisting.
Okay. So that's how I was like, you know, I usually try if I'm here and I have to instead of seeing the, you know, there's that saying you can see a glass half full or half empty.

3:44
Yes.
So when you have no choice, I choose to see it half full instead of half empty.
Okay.
So I was in that situation and I couldn't actually do what I wanted to do. So I was like because we are here, let's start with dental assisting
because maybe we want to be dentists.
Okay. So that at that point that's when I I knew
and the Germans have a very strong apprentice culture.
So they their studying is not like ours. You know you can take an apprentice path. Is that a path path that you choose?
Yes. Actually also um I I I love the way their mentality their mindset to to um different kinds of jobs. Like you said most Africans want their children to be uh doctors and lawyers and architects. There are those there are those occupations especially the millennials us gays our parents were seeing that's what you need to be to be successful

4:38
however with Germans they they value their apprenticeship because it's also thorough
yes
a painter goes to school for 3 years and learns how to paint but it's not just learning how to paint they learn this are primary colors secondary colors tertiary colors you can do more ses you can do this so when you ask for a painter you you have to pay them well there's minimum minimum wage per hour, but they know what they're doing.
You want to be a butcher.
You go to school also for three years.
You learn different parts of the meats of the cow, the chicken, the rabbit, they know they know everything. So when you go buy your meat,
like we say in Kenya, you know, you're getting the real deal. Same to a plumber, same to a carpenter and a dental assistant. So as a dental assistant, I did rounds. Yes. So, you you you work at a dental office

5:30
and you're told this week you're stationed at the reception.
You learn how to pick calls. You learn how to welcome uh um patients. You're told this month you're going to be in the lab.
You learn how to make night guards and lab staff. You're told this week you'll be at supplies HR. So, you circulate by the time you're done 3 years there, you really know how to be a good place. Yes. Yes. And I I'm I'm like my vision also at this point because I experienced that I would like to build some kind of foundation or TVET especially for dental assistance.
Okay.
Okay. So um maybe just let's um discuss a bit about German. Yeah. You leave Kenya, you go to German. I would assume by the time you're leaving Kenya, you're not a German speaker. Yeah. And so maybe tell us for the benefit of the audience what what that journey is like. Uh particularly now that um in the last maybe 5 years we have seen quite a a bit of labor uh Kenyan uh Kenyans been encouraged to apply for jobs in Germany

6:38 to go and and a lot are. So how was that journey for you landing in Germany? you're not a fluent speaker and you you work your way up the ranks at least from a spoken perspective until a place where you're able to now start building applying for jobs and building your career.
Yes. So this is around 25 years ago.
Yes.
Maybe I look younger than I really am. [laughter]
Could you touch us?
Anyway, um 25 years ago things were different.
Yes. Um even the way Germans saw us I would I'd say they saw us differently than today. These days the world is more open. We move around more. Even as doctors we go for seminars in different countries we move around. So also Europeans are used to seeing Germans in their continent.

7:27
I feel 25 years is not too far ago but I still feel there's a difference. And also when I was leaving Germany I felt it was not the same way as when I I went to Germany. The mind of a 19year-old is impressive. Even today, the 19 year olds that I know, it's very impressive. Like things I did then,
if you tell me to do them now, I'd be like, "No, I'm too tired for that." [clears throat]
Yeah. So, I was determined to learn German. I had a crazy drive. I was so focused.
So, what I was doing is I was listening to cassettes
and [clears throat] I was also reading books. So, when I was there 6 months, I read Harry Potter in German. M
so I was I was not reading every word to understand but I needed to understand the context.

8:12
So reading was really helpful and I I I just knew this country you don't speak their language they respect you less. So when you speak their language they see you're interested you want to be integrated. So there's a there's a certain level of respect you get when you speak the language even before they go to other things.
Okay. So, and it is also nicer when you you're somewhere and you can talk to other people. And it's also nicer when you're shopping at the supermarket when you can say you gave me €5 less or €5 more.
Um, so the learning of the language was like very very important for me. So that was like the first thing I did.
Yeah.
So the the culture you learn as you move along. So there are things for us Kenyans they're like okay and for Germans are not okay and then there are things for Germans are okay and for Kenyans are not okay. So I had to learn to just blend in. If you are with people who do things this way then try to do them as as they do. So that was like the first milestone for me learning the language. So I started uh dental assisting when I was there around

9:19 10 months and my German was enough to do the course in in German.
Okay.
Okay. And did you find that um um would are you a champion of that Kenyans going out to get those experiences like now we have a lot of Kenyans. I mean now there's a deliberate effort to find people jobs in Germany and the Germans German president was in the country met the Kenyan president. Kenyans for a whole your exposure to German culture, German way of life was was that a positive experience in your life?
Yes. Yes. I actually think um there are some things uh Kenyans we are very good at and there are things we are horrible at. And uh most of the things where we are good at Germans are not so good at and most of the things where Germans are good at we are not.

10:15
Yeah.
I find straightforwardness. Germans are very straightforward. You know where you stand.
So my patients they they I tell them as it is
and we we find a solution together or we celebrate together. But I'd never tell them uh you know sometimes we are with Kenyans you don't know where you stand. If a German is smiling with you, they are smiling for you for real because if they don't smile at you, they're not smiling at you. So there are some things where I've learned from the Germans and there are things where um Germans could learn from us. So punctuality, reliability, efficiency, those are typical
German stuff. um happiness even when things are really down having our nyamachas random Sundays spontaneous going to your neighbor's place and asking for salt that's typical Kenyan

11:06
so there's there's there's a lot to learn from from from both sides even um like um uh there's a little story I want to tell so there was um a time I have very active children motoric skills number one
yes
so my son was around four
and we went um uh he was on his bike and I was walking or these bikes which don't have u
pedals
so we reached we were walking somewhere we don't walk other days so there was a steep slope that I didn't know was there that just came all of a sudden
so the child just started rolling down I'm trying to run I can't catch up with him because this thing doesn't have bricks
yes
so everyone is seeing he's going to fall the people who are walking it's like a sort of like um a walking trail in a forest. So everyone who's there is seeing he's going to fall, but they're trying to direct him where to fall.

12:02
So everyone is telling him fall like this, fall like this.
So he he understood and he also knew he was going to fall. So he fell on the side that was better than in the ditch.
So I'm running to him and he has an injury that I can see the bone.
So in panic I carry him. I put him in the car. Then I'm thinking, okay, going to Munich now. will be uh with the public transport it was rush hour would take too long would uh with the car would take too long with the public transport would be faster. So I I go to the train, I park, I open the car, I pick the child, I leave the car door open, I run into the train, I enter the train, I take the child to the hospital, pediatrician, first aid is

12:44 done, everything. Now we head back home. So of course we take the train again. Do you know I reached there the same way I'd left the car with the door open, 3 hours later it was the same. And my first thought was if this was Kenya,
be a different story.
They would have either a good Samaritan closed the door
Yes. or someone just stolen everything, the car, the side mirrors, whatever is in the car. So everything was there. So that is positive about Germans. However, no one
close that door for me.
And Kenya, someone would have
very good insight. Yeah.
Yes. So that that just got me thinking, yes, as are different, but not everything Kenyans do is is not correct, but also not everything. So a blend. So I try to be a blend of both. Don't you find though that and and that's a very good insight that you but I I find that from my experience and my travels that that is the case with everything with every culture you'll interact with you'll find the positive and the negative. There's never only one story

13:46 you know. So you you you you're right in the sense that we we tend to be very um social, you know, it's not uncommon for your neighbor to pass by your house and say, you know, either come with a bottle of wine or a drink and say, I've come unannounced, you know, are you available? Let's sit and share a drink together. But if um my experience from the Europeans is if a European and not just the Germans, maybe the Germans are uh but I find that to be generally cultural in Europe.
Yes.
It's extremely rare to be invited to someone's home.
Yes.
You know, you either have become very very close, you know.
Yes.
Um yet in an African setting,
coming home is coming home. It's it's almost a natural thing.

14:34
Yes. So, it's very interesting that you bring out that insight.
Yes.
So, let's come back now to your you you've you've gotten in, you've learned your German, you've uh done your three-year uh dental assistant, and you work for how long at um maybe walk us through the journey of transition from a dental assistant working now into university to study. Um
yes.
Yes. So I I my character or I I like to believe I'm that kind of person. I I like being led by where life is taking me.
So as much as I plan, I I I let life lead me.
So if something doesn't feel right, I I I live it. Like I work a lot with intuition.
If it feels right, if it feels I can I can wait for it, I wait. If it feels there's no need of waiting because nothing will change, I I stop. So at that point I felt okay I want to be a dentist. So I started finding out how how do we do this? Um in Munich they at least at that time I don't know how it is now they went to school 13 years before they could enroll for the university.

15:43
In Kenya I remember it for four was 12.
So I missed a year
so I had to do a bridging year.
Okay.
Yes. And in this bridging year we did maths, chemistry, biology, Latin.
Okay. So everything was quite okay except maths because they were already so much on calculators and us guys were still on log books.
Yes.
But the one I was then sometimes I'm like that but only sometimes then I was like you know
so I I I made sure to understand how to use the calculator and there was no
all this uh exposure online that we have. So it was not easy. I had to spend hours in the library. M
um so I did the bridging for one year after that one year there was an an intake at the university officially um and that's how the journey began. Okay.

16:34
So I still had
which university in Germany did you study?
It's called Ludwig Maximleian University in Munich. It's in Munich. Yes. The main university.
And what do you study?
I studied dentistry.
Okay.
Yes. Yes. And also
and how long is a dentistry course in in in
Germany? 5 and a half years.
Okay. uh although the half a year at the end is uh exams.
Okay.
So you have half a year of exams. So every year a different paper because you're working with patients. So you're told you have to get a feeling patient, a root canal patient, a denture patient. So all these things cannot be done within two days.
So we had to work on patients. So that's why the patient uh the exam took so long.

17:12
And this five months of this half a year of exams. So it's you're you're getting to do different procedures and you're basically tested and graded on each.
Yes.
Okay. So you're working under the supervision of a senior dentist, I would assume.
Yes.
Okay. And based on the success of that, that's when you graduate.
Yes. Yes.
And the studying was also very structured. Okay.
So I um um we we we had one and also a lot of resources,
you know. Uh you have one dental chair, two students. So in the morning one is working on the chair and you have a supervisor. So each step you do you get the supervisor they check which is who this supervisor is also a dentist but a dentist who's finished studying then they sign before you can go on the next step.

17:59
Okay.
So actually also coming to the university clinic was a very thorough dentistry because the Germans and their thoroughess if you're not thorough this step you cannot go to the next step.
Okay. So you're to taught to be very very
meticulous
meticulous and no shortcuts you it has to be right.
Okay.
Um otherwise you can't go to the next step. But the good thing also this um semester if you don't pass for whatever reason you you're given a number of semesters which you can repeat. Okay.
So they don't dismiss you directly. You can be having a um a hard
bad time. A tough time. Um that was I really appreciate because um uh it was um you know if you if you do something every day every day for 5 years

18:46
getting it out of you is very difficult.
Okay.
So if you're taught thorough meticulousness 5 years you come out of there and you're just a thorough person in terms of what you do.
How does that compare with our education? Is that from a timeline perspective? because I know we have a a rather old dentistry program the University of Nairobi and I think since then otheriversities of offering medic more university and so on so how does that uh you've now you practice locally so you interact with local um talent how does the training compare in your opinion
uh BDS here is shorter
okay
um it's a good training however it's shorter so of course The
So, how long is it?
Um, four years.

19:35
I think it's 4 years.
I think it's four years.
844 would be four years. Yes. Yes. So, the the the dentists that come out of dental school in Kenya are good dentists. However, [clears throat] it's one year shorter.
Okay.
Yes. And that's proved to be a problem later.
Yes.
Because um the the it's called BDS here. M so the the the at the commission for university education they they needed it written BDS and the Germans were like if we write BDS we are shortening it
Mhm.
and we are devaluing your degree.
All right.
Yes. So it was a little bit of a back and forth but I understood both sides. So in Kenya they told me if you were to be taken to do dentistry somewhere in Ludwa and BDS is not written or somewhere in the outcasts of Nairobi they might not really know what you mean.

20:22
Right. So you you mean now this is the journey of you converting your German certification into Kenyan? So that one year was a problem.
Maybe let's speak to that a bit so that we can get people to understand what that takes.
Yes.
Um and we'll come back to your German journey postgraduation. But let's speak because you brought it up about what does that take? you have a German degree and you want to come back home because I know all licensing for medicine like the law is local. So whether you have studied somewhere, you still have to come and get local licensing. So how was that journey for you?
Um I started doing my homework early.
Okay.
So I started going through the websites where this is written. I started writing emails to Kenya so that when I know um my when I come back my transitioning is um is [clears throat] easier. So I I I am not an impulsive person. I don't wake up and decide today I'm doing this. I I I decide I'm doing it. I take my time. I decide I'm doing it. And when I decide I start researching on it.

21:29
Yeah. Which I'm doing a lot of as as an entrepreneur at the moment because I I'm being I'm getting so much of things I've not been confronted with before. Mhm.
Um, however, I started researching early so I knew where I needed to go when I came back.
And where did you need to go?
Um, to the board.
Mhm.
Uh,
is the board of dental and medical practitioners?
Yes. Yes. Kenya medical uh board. Uh, I brought my papers there and I also had to take them to the commission for university education for them to bring them
to localize them.
To localize them. So once they localized them, I took them to the board and we started the process.
So they told me um I need to do a peer review.

22:11
Mhm.
A peer review is other orthodontists sit with me in a conference room and ask me questions about where I studied and also about orthodontics just generally just to counter check that I am really who I say I am
professionally. professionally and also there are random questions also just about Munich just to also check that it was really Munich so I think maybe they have bad experience with
I I don't know where that came from but of course cuz I was in Munich I knew all the answers to the questions um I was um I think also depending on how many years one had done a certain course like for me orthodontics um you either go directly into practicing or you have to do some sort of um trainineehip at the university.

23:01
So I was shadowing one of the orthodontists at the University of Nairobi and helping him with the teaching for a year.
So now is a good time. Uh I think now if I if I take us back to your graduating 5 and a half years, you're done. Maybe let's start by you telling us the difference between dentistry when you're a dentist and you're an orthodontist. Yeah. because I met you
uh because you treated my daughter
and um you were referred to us by our dentist.
Okay.
Yes. So the the dentist reached a place and she says okay uh the state of your daughter's teeth you need to see an orthodontist. So maybe for the benefit of myself and the audience, maybe tell us the difference. What's dentistry and what's orthodontist and how

23:53
does a dentist transition to become an orthodontist?
Yes. So I like comparing this with the medical specialist uh specialist. So for example, a neurologist or a cardiologist. So you first have to be a doctor, a general practitioner.
After that you specialized
to to become a specialist. So that's the same way with orthodontics. You first have to be a dentist. After that you specialize to become with an orthodontist.
Okay.
So many people don't know that.
And uh one also one of my aims and one of those things I try to really educate about is to is for the the dentists to to to know at what point they need to send to the orthodontist. So heads up to your dentist. That's great because we are very few orthodontists. We can do all the orthodontic work. However, a dentist should be able to identify this is work for an orthodontist. Same as a general practitioner, you can give

24:56 someone meds for for blood pressure. But then when you notice, okay, this is not working. The the weight is reduced, the the patient is doing sports, all parameters as I studied them seem to be okay, but the pressure is still high. maybe at this point I'm not the right person to continue with this treatment. Let me refer you to a cardiologist. So that's how it should it should also be in dentistry.
Okay. And maybe to help us understand what is the orthodontist's work. What did my daughter's dentist see? And say okay now this is not for me. This is for orthodontists. What's that in layman's terms? What's the the the primary difference
or what's the specialization I guess is the right question.

25:42
Yes. So dentists orthodontists move in simple words move teeth and move jaws.
Okay.
So if um a child's jaw is too far back, the bottom one for example, we call [clears throat] that a class two. So as an orthodontist, I can give the patient an appliance to help move the jaw forward.
If the jaw is too far forward, we call that a class three. Mhm.
I can give the patient an appliance again to help move the jaw back.
Mhm.
Right. So, we move teeth and move jaws. So, most people in terms of orthodontics, no braces.
Yes.
But that's just a fraction of what we we actually do.
Agreed. Because you even deal with size, you know, jaws too small. Yeah. Okay.
Yes. So, jaw jaw too small, jaw too large,

26:31
um jaw too far back, jaw too far forward. Okay.
Yeah, we deal with uh uh with all those things.
Okay.
I think that's a very good layman's explanation. Yes.
So um when you graduate, do you practice first in Germany or do you go straight now to start your specialization to become an orthodontist?
So um actually as I was studying good think I was already a dental assistant.
Yes.
So I I assisted a dentist who used to um to work weekends. M
so his staff um had their specific hours they're determined by the law how many hours someone should work however he still wanted to work over the weekend so also in Germany I also don't know if this is still the same way as a dentist you have to take up an emergency weekend

27:20
okay
where you are on call for patients who need you
okay
so you can give this emergency weekend to another dentist if you want if you don't have the time but it's it you told you you have to do it So he used to take them up from other dentists because he used to say that's the the fast the the easiest marketing um strategy because once you see these patients and they are happy with your services they stick around.
So some don't go regularly to the dentist and they don't even have another dentist. So if they do they want they go back. If they don't they stick around. So he had to find someone who's ready to work weekends. So that's what I did as a as um dental student.
So once I finished dentistry um I started doing the masters in orthodontics

28:09
at the same time I got my first child [clears throat]
um and that's actually when I started thinking about coming back home. Okay,
because here we have a lot of support systems and I I try to study sometimes some things why are things why do Germans do some things the way they do
and this random you can't just go to their house is because they're alone
they are alone
so you can randomly come to my house because I have this person to help me with the dishes this one to make the another one to put on the fire we make our our nyamach so because of how our society is built
it makes us be able to do such things um such things more.
Agreed. I think that's a very interesting point that you make because um I find that it's a point that is not considered by many when they when they um are transitioning out of Kenya.

29:01
And um one of the things we try to do on this podcast is to create correct narratives about us as Africans and life in Africa. M
so a lot of times moving out to the west yeah is packaged as you know wow brilliant and there are elements of it that's wow you know [snorts]
anyone would like to live in that structured environment that predictable environment
but there's also I think we have not done a very good job of curating how important our social structure and social support systems are
yes
you know that being able to have a young cousin who comes and spends time with you and so your kids, you know, or being able to go um um very few people in Europe have uh two homes.
Yes.

29:56
Yeah. But two homes is a Kenyan thing. You know, people know I live in Nairobi and I'm from or I live in and I'm from here and so on and so you have that social structure and that [clears throat] social
safety net, you know, that enables you. So it's very interesting because I've heard that from quite a few people. The moment the children come then that's when the idea of coming back home
or I have a brother who lives outside the country.
And one of the things he enjoys most about coming back home is how his kids now just plug into this social ecosystem and move from there. But we don't speak about it enough, I think.
Yes. Yes.
Okay. M
I I actually also had um to to learn how to delegate.

30:43
It's something I I um intentionally had to to learn and consciously had to learn because I found myself doing so many things on my own.
And I don't remember I can actually get the help. So
I moved um uh houses at some point and a friend came visiting and she's like um where is the number of the bodha bodha guy? I'm like which number? I don't have a number. You've been here for weeks. How come you don't have a number? Cuz I don't know how to I know how to be efficient. If I need to buy that yogurt, I buy it on my way to work or on my way [clears throat] back from work.
So I I never get to to send people around. So it has it its advantages because I am more efficient because every time the bodha bodha guy comes, you also have to pay for it and you could actually do it yourself. So it teaches Germany teaches you to be efficient but sometimes you forget how to delegate

31:39
and as a career mom it can get a lot.
Yes.
If you the kids are sporty they have this they to do this this. So I am learning how to delegate. Even the other day um
uh actually the day of the launch.
Yes. Um um my nephew who helps with picking up my kids from school got stuck in Moranga. We he had car issues.
So um the school is calling me and I'm at my launch and I have to be at the launch. Then um the the the guy at school was just like the the person who was with them. It's okay. I'll I'll just wait. It's fine. And actually I know you're busy. So next time I'll just call your nephew. I'll not call you. So I was just like um then my my girls are like stop panicking. They are fine. you don't leave the next day mechanic was looking at the car

32:32 and he's like you are stuck something he's also my neighbor I should have just I would have just gone and picked the kids and I have other mechs in Moranga you should have just asked me so I'm I'm just like wow I can be helped so I also need to learn to ask for help
excellent
okay so um maybe let's now come home. What what what triggered you because you've studied, you know, you've you took your you found yourself in Germany, worked your way up the ranks and you have worked up the dental ranks from dental assistants to dentistry to now an orthodontist, consultant orthodontist. So when when and how do you make the decision to to come back home to Kenya and how does that look like? You walked

33:22 us through a bit about how you had planned for your licensing. So you get your your local licensing and certification, but how do you then find your way back from Germany?
Yes. So doctors, we like using the word multiffactorial.
Mhm.
So there are um a lot a couple of factors that just came in together
um and helped me make this decision. So when I'm trying the perfect decision.
So I I I wrote the pros and cons and everything was picking to come back. So I also did um a voluntary uh session or a couple of months at um Kikuyo Hospital and that was so much fun. It was it was I was practicing dentistry but I was also having fun.
Yeah. And in Germany, I was practicing dentistry and it was not always fun because my head is thinking, okay, I have to go home, I have to cook, I have to do this, I have to take the trash out, I have to do this, this, this, this. So your mind is constantly also just planning to do other things. And I liked that. So my time even at the moment I can um um uh use it to intentionally do the things that completely add value to me, my family,

34:41 my business and I can delegate those things. So if um I heard someone say somewhere if if it's me as the mom going to buy those tomatoes or it's me at the as the mom cooking that food or is it me as the mom sitting with my children and conversing with them what adds the most value.
So I I I like that in Kenya that I can actually do with my time what is most valuable to me and that was not possible in in Germany. You can't stay in a dirty house either way.
You see, and getting people to help you clean it is very expensive.
So that that was the point. After Kikuyu Hospital, I started thinking, okay, maybe I should do something. So I started researching where to go. Yeah. We have a common friend, a maxillo facial surgeon.

35:26
So he's one of the people I spoke to 17 years ago.
Okay.
Yes. Okay.
And I was given his contact by one of the pro professors in Germany. um who who was my maxillo facial um professor. So I found out he comes to Kenya a lot to do cleft um lip surgeries.
Yes, lip surgeries. So he he just gave me a few contacts and uh I talked to them.
Very easy to reach. Open door system. I was very impressed. You know sometimes you hear these names as a young person and you're like okay that person I cannot call.
These are seasoned doctors. Yes. You you just think that one has no time to listen to me. You know when people come and they want to know about orthodontics, how I did it, how it is in studying in Germany. So most of the time it's the parents who call me send them over.

36:14
Yeah. I make a slot in my schedule. I see them half an hour. I tell them and there are those who say I think that's for me. There are those who say okay now that I've spoken to you
I don't want
I don't want to do that. So I was very appreciative that they listened to me. And until now they are my friends and I still we sit now in boardrooms together and at that [clears throat] point I was just that little uh uh Wiiro not yet Dr. Waniro asking questions looking up to them and um they really helped me to make that decision.
So when do you pack up when do you pack up your things in your life in Germany and come back home?
So this is it was I I I didn't do an abrupt move.
Okay.

36:56
So it was more I'm here I'm there. I'm checking if things are working or things are not working. So that was about 7 years ago.
Okay.
Um um in in Germany the systems work very very well and I think that's one of the reasons many people don't get the confidence to come back
um because you you're coming to you're used to systems. So many people who stayed out there 18 years like I did
lack the courage
to come back
come back because
to an element of chaos some chaos. Yes. So you have to be ready to go a few steps back before you can catch up. Same to opening a business.
So in many ways you're going a few steps back. But in many ways also you're seen that those
back steps will take you forward in a few years to come. So that was I was like ready. Yeah. In in Kenya we say kind.

37:50
I was just I was like let's start this. There were so many hurdles um so many problems. Um uh but the good side is I had my support system. I had all these dentists and friends around me that were like yeah you can do this and let's do this. So I started very small
and step by step I put
So what did you come back as? What did you come back to do? You got a job or what did you Yes. So I I um one of my um the person I bought the house from that I came to live in
um told me they have a a friend who's a German. So that's where I started. So I met her.
Uh she's an owner of a tourist company u been in Kenya for over 40 years.
Yes.
So she was like she'll tell you where to get German sausages and all. So talk to her. She knows people. So she she showed me how to get also into the German Kenyan space which has been until now like also um a space that is very useful

38:54
in terms of also my business and also um I always say when you live with people 18 years whether you like it or not
you are also those people.
Agreed.
Yes. So even if I say I am not a German I am a German. Even if I say I'm not a Kenyan I am a Kenyan whether I like it or not. So those are circles I feel very comfortable in. Yes. Because we have a lot of similar mindsets.
So that's how I started. So she introduced me to her dentist
who is uh one of my mentors and he's he's awesome because he's very
um he likes sharing. He likes sharing. So he was one of the speakers also at my launch. and um he introduced me now to orthodontists
who I then introduced myself to them and they gave me a a slot at uh at starters as loc

39:44
and at some point I was then now a consultant.
Okay. Yes.
Okay. Okay. And when you say there are not many orthodontists in Kenya,
do you have a number? Is there an estimate like how many you are? So officialists uh those who we are official specialists we must be uh at this point around 16.
What?
Yes.
In the whole country.
In the whole country. Yeah.
And when I came we were I was the 10th.
So you are the 10th registered licensed
consultant orthodontist.
Yes. Yes.
And now they are 16.
Yes.
Oh wow. So guys out there, if you're looking for something to study, can you consider becoming number 17, 18, 19 or 20?
Yes, please.
Oh wow. That's that's that's really interesting and I find that to be quite interesting. Whenever you talk about specialists in a Kenyan context because um I have a I have a very good friend who's a cardiovascular surgeon. when you ask him how many are you I think them they're nine or I think it's eight or nine and you start to hear these numbers and you know um there's um there's another friend who's a consultant

40:57 orthopedic surgeon I think they're in the low 20s you know and and so it's very interesting as you you continue to to get these numbers and it speaks to how our market is an emerging market it's it's growing yes
and also speaks to the magnitude of the opportunity that is available.
Yes. Yes.
So now let's let's uh let's come into um 7 years in and you finally get to open your own place. Yeah. Uh Orthodontics.
Yes.
Yeah. And tell us about that journey. Hula Orthodontics. You now become an entrepreneur in a Kenyan context.
Yes. or opened your your your own orthodontics p practice and given that your numbers are so few in the nation I think it must be one of few yeah um if you're 17 orthodontist

41:53
around the country then the practices must be even fewer than than those numbers. Yeah. So tell us about that journey of setting up stool orthodontist.
Yes. So um it was some it was it's a vision.
Mhm.
You know like when you have your lists I work a lot with lists even daily tasks I have lists.
Mh.
Um and one of the things on my lists at least the the the last couple of years was uh for some things that I want to do I need to have my my own space right. So I want to to teach. So I have realized with time that um um I I like talking and uh I can explain things in a in a in a language that people can understand.
So we we are not supposed to take it for granted when there are some things that come easy to us.

42:47
So I have been told that a couple of times even towards the patients. So I can I can use orthodonticsology terminology where only very few people or dentists will understand but I can also talk to a 7-year-old and I I let them understand. So even my patients from young I I I I I like to explain to them why I'm doing it and what I am doing right. So even during the the clinical work I find myself teaching. So I I I ask the parents which water are the children getting do you purify it? So I I I tend to get out of the purely orthodontic space
because I also want to be in a teaching space.
Okay.
So I am still trying to figure that out how I will get into this TVET system of teaching.

43:40
But I like teaching. So at the moment even since Shula Orthodontics opened we've gone we've had four sessions at different schools where we go with our teeth models and we teach the kids how to to brush their teeth, what to eat, what should be in the water bottle and um just things that are so normal but people don't practice them. I I've also noticed teeth is a very small niche.
Yeah. And maybe orthodontics is not very um that career where everyone is following because we are still looking into people's mouths and looking into mouths is not always very pleasant.
Yes.
So um um uh uh I am very fulfilled at my office. Okay.
So as a new office we are still trying to to clear the debts. Um we are trying to build systems. Yeah. I'm very big on systems. Even at home, I say the house keys are always here. The day you remove them from here, you bring confusion in the whole uh space. So I'm also trying to tell teach my staff

44:47
efficiency systems. We need to be know there are people who work a lot and at the end of the day they have nothing
because they do not have properly functioning systems.
They work hard not smart.
They work hard not smart. So with having my own space, I can um do with my space what I I want to give to my African or my Kenyan community.
So that is one of the visions. Orthodontics is one thing, the clinical work. I love it cuz I love doing things with my hands, but I'm also looking into um um making a foundation or a TET or something. Yeah, we can meet in a couple of years after we've done this. Um
I think that's a very noble noble initiative. But I think there's nothing more fulfilling than passing on knowledge.

45:33
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes. Yes. It's it's it's it's wonderful. And I I keep deviating with my patients, you know, sometimes we talk about too many things.
So tell me a bit about your practice. How big is it? How many staff do you have?
Yes.
Yeah. And and how has it been now running your own your own show?
Yes. So we it's around 1,200 square foot.
Mhm. Um we've started with the basics.
So we've started with our sterilization space and we've started with um uh two dental chairs but we have provision to grow.
Yes. So um uh we are at Roslin Riviera Mo
um uh slowly by slowly I have seven members of staff.
Okay.
A mixture of um Gen Z's and millennials. So we are a very supportive team. So these are dental assistants like yourself, how you started out in Germany.

46:30
Yes. And the youngest one is 19 and I tell her my story. So I also started at your age as a dental assistant. So um u I've worked in the last 20 plus years in about eight um dental offices
and I have taken many lessons out of them
and I the biggest one of the biggest lessons I have taken is I want my staff
to respect me yes but to also be able to talk to me
and to be happy where they're working. So um um I find it very sad when people are too scared of their bosses like they can't knock and say now there's this I I I'm teaching communication. So not only am I teaching the orthodontic assistant skills but I'm also teaching the soft skills. Yeah. Come in say good morning how is everyone doing? Yeah. Uh courtesy be towards the patient. If we are running late it's also courtesy to tell

47:28 the patient you know. So um there are those qualities that some uh depending on where you grew up or who you grew up with, you're not taught from childhood. So I am teaching them as much as I can and I want them to respect me but also to be able to talk to me.
Okay. M
I really like this uh goal of yours of this TVET and it would be good to to see how that pans out cuz I think
um um that that that um we sometimes I think think only of you know like the dentist and the orthodontist but there's so much there's I like to think of things in terms of the ecosystem.
Yes.
And the ecosystem is equally important.
Yes.
Yeah. your your practice would be a lot tougher without your dental assistance. You know, it's not doable. Yeah, it's not doable. So, is a there's a rule for everyone. And if you have people coming in at different levels,

48:25
they can find their way.
Yes. Yes.
You're you've now become another example of something that I I speak to a lot of young people about.
Yes.
That your life has not ended if you don't get into university straight after school. Yes,
there are many ways to skin ave I have friends who've gone into uni for their undergraduate 10 years after leaving high school because they started either
h with a diploma and and that too is a respectable career path that can take you up the ranks of the
Yes. And do you know there are many who think oh my god how many years was she in school 12 years okay we are now here together
and I went to school 12 years and it is okay yes and my my grandma yeah the the Nancy wer I'm named after

49:17
she learned to read and write at a very old age
so I had to actually get her a lens
um from Germany when I came to visit for her to be able to learn how to read. Wow.
And that's so inspirational. Like I tell myself that woman and everyone is like you're so her and and it's it's it was you know it's never too late.
It's never do do you if you think at this point I need to go back to school do it. If you think at this point this is what I need to do do it.
Okay. Maybe now we can speak generally about your your the landscape of dentistry and uh or um orthodontists in Kenya. you now have your um you're in a special category. You have worked in Europe with your experience there. You have now settled, worked, established your your practice and and uh entrepreneurship venture in Kenya. So, how do you see the landscape? What do you think about it? What do you see as the opportunity in this space or this

50:20 ecosystem of dentistry and orthodontics?
Yes. So uh like I'd said before there there are a few things I've been trying to see what is it that um Kenyans need to what do we need to emphasize more right so I'm at that space where I've seen a lot I've learned a lot in this um field so I I I know what we are lacking in Kenya
so one of the things is we are lacking um um collaboration among uh each other
so um in the dental field sometimes it's it's too competitive. It's too comp competitive. And uh for example, when I get a patient and they need an extraction, I was taught how to do an extraction. I know how to actually I had a lot of uh fun at Kikuyu Hospital. I went back to Germany and I was the extraction queen.

51:09
Yeah. So I know how to do it, but I am running an orthodontic office. M.
So there's someone who's running a surgery, a surgical office, dental surgery, and they they extract 500 teeth in a year.
So why should I extract to I'd rather do the orthodontics and I let my colleague do the extraction. So that's one thing I'm trying to to teach my colleagues
that uh there's enough for all of us.
Yes. Um and I I um we should learn to collaborate more. Then the other thing also is interceptive treatment. Do you remember that word?
Tell me more. [laughter] I remember the words but I don't know I don't know what it means in the context of your space. Yeah.
Yes. So interceptive treatment is um uh uh orthodontic treatment um without having all permanent teeth.

52:02
Mhm. [clears throat]
So most out of lack of knowledge people will be told many times wait until your child is 13 years to get braces. That's very wrong because your dental age is not your chronologic age and by chronologic age I say the the age in your the the age in your birth certificate. So that some children who get teeth earlier others get later. So the orthodontist would actually see and say this child is at the right age for us to do ABCD. And when I told you about growth also u there are those things we can only do as they are growing.
So that is also information I want to get out there. We need to collaborate more, refer more and we need to let these children be seen by the the the the right specialists at the right time so that we get the right uh time

52:50
and I'm also taking this initiative initiative to do the screenings. I do them for free in different schools.
Um my target is every quarter I do one school no matter where you if someone calls us up and they say doc let's do this. I'm down for it. And also some toothpaste companies have started getting in touch and we are collaborating and they're bringing me toothpaste, toothbrushes. So it's even becoming more for the kids like more rewarding.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay. Excellent. Dr. Stulla, what what an excellent interview. Uh learned a lot from you.
Yes.
As again like I said, we've it's now what my daughter is a this is a third year. It's been a three year journey. Is it a three or four year journey of of working on her teeth? So it's it's great that you're able to share the story. I hope you someone can find inspiration from it and at least have clarity on the path or or where they want to go in this in this field. I think I'll now give you an opportunity to speak to the audience.

53:50
Yes.
Tell them where can they find Tula Orthodontics um should they need to your services or or other dentists out there. Yes. uh in your the spirit of your your referral um and collaboration that you've just spoken to. I'll give you a chance to speak to the audience and tell them where to find you.
Yes. And thanks again for having me. You see, we know each other so many years and we've never really talked a lot.
Yes. [laughter] I think this is the longest conversation we have had.
All those three years put together. This is the longest.
Yes. Thank you again. Yeah. It was a pleasure.
You're welcome. Um so we our clinic is at Roslin Rivera Mall a purely orthodontic clinic. Um we are happy for um we are still figuring a lot of things uh in terms of um what can we do at Orthodontics what do we have time for? Please reach out if you if you think um we can work together. I like collaborations. I like people. I like children. I I generally just like working with people. So, welcome. You can uh write us an email at

54:55 info@tulathodontics.co.ke. Check out our website to just also learn more about orthodontics. Um, vvulla orthodontics.co.ke. And generally, if you just write in Kenya, that's me. There's no other. So, if you're looking also for other pages, shula is the name. S t u h l e r.
Excellent. Thank you
ladies and gentlemen. That was episode 50. Is this 54 of the African do podcast with Dr. Wangroa of Stoula Orthodontics as she has mentioned Ria Mall third floor.
Yes.
And uh do check them out. Check out their website. Check out the services they offer. And dentists out there or other professionals who have collaboration opportunities, please do reach out. Uh thank you very much for joining us in episode 54 and we look forward to having you in African do podcast where we tell stories about excellent Africans executing excellently.