Gowi Odera — transcript

Kahawa na Gowi

This transcript is generated automatically by YouTube and has not been checked by a person. It misspells names and mishears words, particularly around Kenyan English and company names, so read it as a guide to the conversation rather than a quotable record. Each timestamp opens the video at that moment.

0:04 Good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome to episode 15 of the African Do podcast. Uh today we are we're going down a very interesting path. I don't know if I should call it it's not down the spiritual realm but we'll deal with spirituality and uh yes this is an entrepreneurial podcast but I decided to deviate slightly from the norm and talk about spiritual entrepreneurship and um I'm yet to define exactly what that means but hopefully with my good friend here goa maring I hope we can unpack and discuss issues spirituality and entrepreneurship. So, Goi, welcome. Thank you, dude. You've got me here. Yeah, I've made it now. [Applause] Wend welcome. Welcome. It's great. I know we've talked we talked about this in the early days of the podcast. So, to have you as a guest means maybe maybe we have not quite arrived, but we are getting there. Yeah. So, welcome Goi.

1:13 and congratulations. Congratulations on episode 15. Thank you very much. Yes. So, let's start with a conversation around leadership. Yes. Mhm. And leadership has been a factor of your life and I know that you open you openly declare Yeah. Yeah. that you're a student a perpetual student of leadership. Yes. Yeah. H but your leadership journey started uh very early. Um I know from our conversation that after high school you actually got a leadership um scholarship. Yes. Yeah. To go and study your your undergrad in the states on a leadership scholarship. Yes, I did. And that has led to a full career in leadership. Yeah. And now you openly coach uh leaders, teach leaders, mentor leaders. you you carry a lot of you're a spiritual guide to a lot of entrepreneurs which is actually the basis of where you're sitting on this couch but let's start about that journey

2:18 what is it about leadership are leaders maybe I should start by asking a question are leaders born or are leaders created and how does that relate to you you know as you speak about that I'm like ha kumbbe you know a lot about meh Um to answer your your your last question, I think it's a it's a it's a it's even in leadership studies at the academic place, I don't think there's an agreed thing about our leaders born or leaders um uh made. I think it's a combination of both but also an environment in itself. I think it was Nelson Mandela who once said this. Yeah. He says uh it's the moment I'm paraphrasing it. You know there are times when history calls you to do some a thing and uh and it calls you out. And so history or circumstances call out the leader in you. I think we all have a capacity to give leadership and I think I think leadership is the sum total of your

3:32 capacity uh to to rally people um around a values uh around a vision and uh around a purpose uh and and to accomplish uh a particular task a goal or reality or thinking in it in itself and so I would say this a combination of all of it a lot of it I'd tell you uh is is the moment. The moment is the one that calls out the leader in itself. Yes. Okay. So from that you've had several moments. Yes. Because you first study on a leadership scholarship. Yes. You come back. Yeah. You have found yourself whether it's deliberate or by chance. Yeah. In a lot of um dare I say startup environments. Yes. um from a spiritual perspective or from a church perspective. Yes. But you've been involved. You may not have been the founder per se. Yeah. But you found yourself because you were involved in Nairobi Chapel which has now grown grown into a rather large and robust Christian community. Yeah. Movement, but you were

4:42 there in the very early days. So is that deliberate again or do you just kind of do are you drawn to such I I think I think I think again it's a it's a it's both. And it wasn't necessarily church that God even before that I was I was a missionary with with a faith-based organization. Okay. And when I when I did finish my stint out abroad and and came back, I came back right at the point where the HIV AIDS pandemic was huge in the country here in Kenya. And the government just had uh was considering declaring it a a national disaster. Yes. Uh and and when that was going on, the big issue at that point was how do you address the HIV AIDS um uh pandemic in subsaharan Africa? Yeah. And one of the places that were what we call greatest touch points of these young people and where where are young people talking about issues around sex and at that particular moment I was

5:54 engaged in this faith-based organization that was deal with the young people and so how do we position our messaging of hope uh but also addressing the issue of HIV and AIDS and and we we we came out with ways of just doing uh creative ways of engaging young people using music. Mhm. Uh and the creative arts, but also looking at creating employment uh for young people. And that resonated with a with a with with with young people around subsahara and Africa um in with with what we did. And I was privileged, you know, uh to be in that place at that and and being part of the the thinking uh with that and and drawing from the resources that we did have and a lot of that was human capital that we were able to do and put up teams to be able to do to to do that. I think the fascinating thing was I didn't know I didn't know what I was doing then. Yeah. they're

6:56 just figuring it out. And and maybe that's what draws me me to to many of these um situations of leadership. It's what is new uh what is daunting and possibly what is even intimidating, threatening, uh uh so you need to be able to figure out something new um uh in uncharted waters. And I guess that's what now draws out the leader in me because that that that is that's those are spaces that I thrive and also in chaos. So when there's transition or something of that sort. So whether it's chaos that is where I I really thrive in giving leadership and direction. Okay. Yes. So you you you you you rightly say that you seem to be drawn to this I call them startup like absolutely environments in your realm. Yes. But anchored on one your faith and uh two your your passion for leadership and for creating what you consider good leadership. Yes. So you

8:03 transition out of the faith-based Yes. into which at the time was another startupish yes environment because you had a long stint in Nairobi chapo yes but at the beginning yes it was in those early days I think you did 20 years or 20 odd years h more you did more than 20 years now yes more than 20 years it was a very small community in a small church not what it is today so again what did you see you've explained explain to us what you saw in the faith ba based institution that was running the HIV programs but what did you see in chapel so one of the the challenges in the faith-based organization that was in was it was a culture of dependence on foreign funding yes and that that got me and again youthful hubris got me in trouble it disturbed you man don't just disturbed me my youth my youthful hubris uh and the way I I addressed that and all that uh did not endear me well uh to

9:11 to to my superiors. And so out of a disagreement I ended up leaving that organization. But as I was in a place of you know just trying to figure out myself. I was involved a lot with what at that time was the uh NAK National Alliance of Kenya Party. Mhm. um and and what they were doing uh at that time it was Kbaki uh Charitingu and Kijano Amaloa that was really attractive to me of what they were trying to be able to do. Yes. Uh with with the politics of the day. Yes. Trying to be able to figure out how to to get Moy out. Yes. And so I got involved with with with the players from the at the back end of that that particular thing. And so for about about 9 10 months I was involved with that and I would travel around and listening to what young people were saying and I really dabbled with considering whether or not you know to engage politically at that point

10:15 actually going and doing but I that it was not the time then and so I also I also was scarred from my time uh with a faith-based organization and I really felt that I had I had missed out on on on mentorship and leadership in itself. And so at that time uh the the the senior pastor of Nairobi Chapel now Bishop Oscar Muru um got to hear that I was I wasn't I wasn't in working just hovering around. I was hovering around and you know he called he said let's let's talk and we talked. Now I had known him from before my my my younger days you know when I was a young person but uh now he he wanted to hear more of what was going on. And as we did that, we had like two or three conversations. And one time he just told me, "Go, I think you need you need you need uh it was in the word guidance and it was in mentoring. I can't remember what word he

11:14 said, but he says, "Come, let me teach you leadership." Bro, that was not a job offer. That was not a thing. But it was the most attractive uh and most I mean it was just it was just it we didn't even talk about pay job description all that it just endeared me more uh to what I can learn about leadership from a man who I respected yes and who gives who was giving great leadership to this fledgling church that I I I I was drawn to and and the vision of where this organization was going M at that time this was like 25 years ago the vision of where this church was going to um I just couldn't fathom you know you just like but the guy is already there the guy's already there the guy is already there and I said you know what let's let's do this and in a couple of months I able to transition and and started uh with that organization and it is through that and

12:21 all those we we had one we had probably two three church plants at that time. No, no, we had more. Maybe about two or three church plants and then we also had subsidiary ministry into the informal settlements in the urban areas in in Nairobi. Yeah. And there we had another three or four churches. But today there are over 300 churches in four different continents or and we have missionaries leaders that I have been privileged in recruiting training some working under me and we commissioning them you know now I'm seeing what this guy was seeing a guy seen it then then yeah and today that's what the organization is and even as I stepped out from that role uh now over a year ago I am still committed to that purpose Yes. And still coaching and leading some of the people in that particular movement. But it's something I still truly believe and I'm passionate

13:19 about. I don't know if I've answered your question. No, you have. You have. And and you have given me more to to to sh. So you go through this leadership journey. Yes. But it's not over. You know the chapel story is continuing. It is. But you seem there seems to be a thread. Yes. Yeah. In terms of you and that thread is about you seem to have cracked succession. Yeah. In the sense that whether deliberately or not, you have found a way to walk away. Yeah. From things that you have built or have been involved in building. Yes. And you do so when they are at their prime. Yes. So what's that like or where does that come from? I don't know. I don't know who you're talking about. Another guy. I'm seeing it differently. No, no, no. Just Just kidding. But the interesting thing that you you say that is um I think I think that the the thing

14:28 that I have learned to do um over time, one is recognize what my superpower is. Mhm. And one of those things is I'm a great initiator of things and ideas. Uh and another one is I can be able to spot talent and leaders in leadership. Okay. I I think that's another one that I But then thirdly, which is the which I think for me is is is the best is is is I'm able to um uh to to what's this to inspire and to and to let leadership uh responsibility to others. Uh I I am I'm I don't think in in my history of leadership, I don't think I've held to titles or or or to positions uh because those are not things that define me. Yes. All right. There are other things that do now as I've transitioned on I so maybe that's not truly true. Okay. Because just to to to say yes, the role of a pastor for long defined who I was. Yes. And now that I'm not in that role

15:46 now, I've transitioned out for that, you know, I'm I'm beginning to scratch it. So then then who am I? So I'm not my role. But in the leadership sense per se, I haven't been a I I don't think I've held it. I mean, if you allow me just to go through memory lane in my time at Nairobi Chapel. So I got in as the youth pastor for Nairobi Chapel. Yes. And I was there for about four to 5 years. We transitioned and I moved now and we transitioned the entire youth ministry um to a different format of how we do church because at at that point uh this was probably now about 2005 we now branched off to five different congregations. Yes. at one time and I transitioned to start a church in Eastlands that's now Maven Maveno Mashariki now so it was called Mashariki church then Mashariki chapel but now it's changed to Maveno Mashariki and when we started that church it was

16:43 something new so again picking up on those things right um and then three three and a half years later uh circumstance precipitate that I needed to transition back to the to the the church and I was able to again uh hand over uh responsibilities to to a much younger leadership to be able to do that. And while I was in Nairobi chapel, I now moved on to be in charge of our Sunday church ministries and and that and uh from there I transitioned again uh to our global partnerships. So now when we started expanding outside the continent of Africa, not just out of Kenya but outside the country and so we did a lot of travel about that and then after that I transitioned back to church planting and then I planted other churches and uh I planted uh a couple of churches and then from there at COVID uh just before COVID I transitioned again and we're going to now go and base my

17:53 ministry out in the UK. Yes, that did not happen. But then now because we were around and there were churches that had gone through some challenges, my job was now to um transition them. Um some churches really struggled. Yes. Over over that period of COVID. So my job was to uh to get them up, get them to a place of health. Yeah. And then transition. Okay. So I did that for two different churches after co until I I left. So as you can see you ask me the question why is it finding so easy. I think the thing for me that has been easy is that I had quickly identified those people who I can hand over my responsibilities to. Yeah. And so and I'm looking back even in my last assignment I think I had I was capable of raising leaders maybe replacing myself twice or even three times before I'm I'm I'm left. Okay. It has also helped me with my own sanity. Yes. So so I see other

19:02 pastors who are really busy bro. I mean these guys are busy. They're doing this this that that me I'm just chilling. I'm just chilling and you know I've had my colleagues say going you're not I'm like hey I have this person I have this person but I just got to realize I have more time with my family I have more time to do other things because I have raised leaders and I've delegated these responsibilities to and I don't just delegate responsibilities and I think for me bro this the thing that I I I I need to challenge you even I don't know if you're doing it don't delegate responsibilities deleg delegate expectations. Okay, tell me more about that. And this is what I learned from Bishop Oscar. Okay, if you delegate responsibilities, you're limiting people to what they'll do. Do this, do this, do this, do this. Mhm. But if you delegate expectations

19:56 and say I want a first class to say we're in hospitality industry cuz that's where you are and to say this is an event. I want a first class event. Yes. where people will leave here saying ah I want another one and then you go the guy will define it the guy will define it for himself the way or the lady will define the way the way they understand it and they will deliver so don't delegate responsibility delegate expectations expectations but then you have to be a vision carrier you have to be yes you have to be and that's what leadership is leadership is about I mean just being able to do vision Bro, if you're not giving vision, then yes, what are you doing? That is the thing about a leader. And vision um Peter Draer uh is the one who said this. A vision has a shelf life. It's like milk is like bread. It goes stale or it goes sour in itself. True. And in my my looking at it and and again I I'll give

20:58 this again just under the leadership and mentorship of of of of Oscar Maria we we got to say that within the Nairobi chapel maybe at most three 3 weeks if you're not sharing vision yes in 3 weeks people forget really yes and you you've been in in leadership it has a shelf life and we need to always be figuring out to continue to to recreate that vision of where we want to be and who we are and where we want to be and you're continuously doing that and by I I think by the grace of God and a skill that I've be able to to develop is continuing to share this vision uh to my team and again within church circles you have you win through others you don't you don't win through you win through others you win through others because a lot of our team is volunteers yes all right the hardest the hardest to the hardest to lead group to lead. Yes. And

21:59 to unlock potential with Absolutely. I I I I keep on telling guys you want to challenge your leadership metal. Yes. Work with volunteers. Work with volunteers because that's when you'll know a guy you're not giving him tombs. Yes. If he walks away, he's gone. He's gone. And you have nothing to say. You know, why aren't you on time? Yes. Yes. So that's a that's that I say if you want to test if you can lead go lead volunteers then you know you exactly you can do something and that was my reality for 24 years. So now let's come into the meat on the matter why I think I I I I thought it's good for you to come. You're now in this space. Yes. Yeah. And I think you are uh I think you're actively cing chaos. Huh? Yes. Because um you and your generation of which I am one. Yes. As guys who are quite comfortably to watch events of June last year from our screens and from the socials and say hey these guys they're

23:10 on to a good thing. Leadership leadership leadership leadership has to be held to account. But you the moment you that story kicked off. Yes. You were on the ground. Yes. Yeah. And remember we would talk after the days the events of the day and I think the first day or the second day Mhm. you found yourself leading a team of guys inside the church you know just coordinating guys to help the people who have been tearged. Yeah. And that for me stood out because I was like this guy was not in this story. Yeah. But to to to the streets and then shortly he finds himself leading teams who are helping others. Yes. So one what is it that took you there? Yeah. what what what drove you or what conviction drove you and say listen I I'm I'm going to stand and walk with these kids on this journey and what has been your learning and take after that and maybe

24:16 as to add on to that after that when you went qu you know and you really gelled with this thing about the whole Gen Z protest I think you're one of the person because of embedding yourself in it good and proper Mhm. You then got to see the nuances of it firsthand and understood it better than most. Yes. And you then posted some three or four really hardhitting critical Instagram. You guys should go and look for those. First time I first time I trended in my life online. You need to go look for those Instagram posts on Go's handle. We'll we'll give it to you at the end of the podcast. But you you really hit some three or four hard hitting even to the mainstream church. Yeah. You you you came and many would say you are bashing your own. You know, you came and you called out the church in a way that few have dared do. Yeah. So maybe walk us through that

25:16 whole season and what drove it and why what came out of it. So I I I think a lot of it comes from one my conviction. M of of of what my faith calls me to do. Yes. I think my my faith calls me uh to be uh not just a man of peace but a peacemaker. So a peacemaker, you know, there's a difference between a peace lover and a peacemaker. Yes. A peace peace lover is is is a wants wants people to to be chill. Doesn't want to see uh ruffle the feathers. Yes. Uh a peacemaker. A peace peace peace lover will will want people to hold hands and sing kumbaya. Yes. Yes. A peace lover will also um uh address the issues. All right. But not seek to solve them. Okay. But a peacemaker Yes. is different. A peacemaker is comfortable in chaos. Mhm. In fact, a peacemaker can also create war. Mhm. All right. And so, so, so, and here here I am treading now

26:33 on on on interesting territory because um you're not afraid. You shouldn't a peacemaker is not afraid to confront the situation and make things uncomfortable. Yes. But you're seeking to solve a solution in itself. M the Bible says, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will inherit the earth." Yes. And so and so part and parcel of me is in is informed by that. I don't think our country experiences peace, what I'm calling the shalom of God. Yes. When we look and we we if you can just, you know, break down the words of our the first stanza of our national anthem. Oh God of all creation, bless this our land and nation. Justice be our shield and defender. May we dwell in unity, peace, and liberty. Uh, plenty be found within our borders. What I was seeing that these young people were doing was they were actually calling out this prayer to happen. Mhm. All right. And they were saying exactly

27:40 what I believe in. And if they're saying exactly what I believe in, how can I be involved in that? Now I recognize I am old enough to be some of them their own parents. Yes. So I am not going to take away the story or the limelight from them. Yes. In fact, let them lead. I am ready to to follow. Yes. Once again, bro, that's a leadership thing. True. A mark of a leader is knowing when to lead and when to follow. These young people had a message that resonated with what I believe in. So I allow them to follow in what it is and I I I offered my presence to lend credibility to them. Mhm. So when they were these police people who are shooting tear gas rubber bullets, I'd go and I'd speak to them. So imagine this guy with a to me. Yes. Coming to talk to police people. Yes. police policemen and policemen saying those cops actually saw me differently than a young person doing

28:54 that. True. And I try to reason with those cops when they were having those guns going down. We would put our hands up and say, "Guys, let's reason. Give these young people an opportunity to to vent in itself." But unfortunately, we were not many of us. We were maybe one or two of us, you know, there were not many of us who were there because our generation are not are not as engaged Mhm. in civic uh civic they're not engaged civically. Yes. All right. They're not. And so sometimes, as I say, history calls you and the moment called for people like us to be present uh to give lend credibility to what these young people are saying. And I think um in in retrospect, just looking at how much traction I got those 6 to 8 weeks that we were we were on the streets uh gave a lot of credibility to what these young people were. And it's not that the young people weren't saying

29:57 anything. It just buttressed and it more it just anchor gave it a more prominence of what what they were saying and for me I was able to articulate it a bit uh better because of uh of of my experience uh my exposure and and again also my position in in society specifically within the church circles and so I thought I was doing my bit I did not know bro we were going to start trending I didn't that was not my intention in itself. It was not my intention to stand between those guns and those cannons uh water cannons. That was not my I just found that's not what took you there. No, no, no. I just found myself telling guys chill chill chill jenny. That's where cameras were being you know were clicking away and showing me in that in the in those those spaces. So I don't look for the leadership position. the circumstances calls for leadership and

30:56 that notoriety came because I was just there at the right place at the right right time. Yeah. Interesting. So now you you find yourself with this knowledge of leadership. Yeah. Um last week I called you and I was asking you I need you to help me um get more entrepreneurs. Yes. With interesting story to tell. Yes. To curate. And you quickly you rattled off two or three names. Yeah. Called so and so and so called so and so and called so and so and I hope they'll come on your show. Yeah. I'm still working on them. They haven't. Maybe I'll use you. them together and say but so you have and I can speak now to this from a personal level. Yeah. You found yourself despite not being a business person. Yeah. But maybe because of your journey through leadership and in leadership you found yourself as a confident. Mhm. And uh do I call you a bit of a siege to to many entrepreneur

32:10 in a local context and I was recalling last night how when I was running my restaurant Blanos there's one day I called you in a moment of frustration and that moment of frustration I was actually about to give up and say this thing at that time I had like five cases with kanjo you know And I had those five cases because whenever they came and were nitpicking on little things, yeah, that were not really things, you know, public health things. And they would arrest either me or my people. So I was like, one day I was sitting, I saying, what am I doing here? And I called you and I remember the conversation we had. I asked you, I'm not convinced there's a space for an ethical businessman in this market. Yes. the the the push back is systemic. So you've now found yourself Yes. And I'm sure you do that for many other people. Yes. As a kind of a voice or sounding board for the

33:16 entrepreneur, for the local entrepreneur. Yes. So I want us to talk a bit about that and speak to what are you seeing? There's a lot of buzz, there's a lot of hype, there's a lot of excitement. Yes. Yeah. But what are you seeing and feeling about where we are going entrepreneurally? Yes. Recently you were on your trip with the the the pastor Mike guys. Pass the spoon. Pass the spoon. Yeah. And that pass the spoon. It went viral again. But you were also on a quasi entrepreneurial journey there. Yes. Either learning about or speaking to. Yeah. I know you're called in by a lot of organization to speak about the youth and the opportunity that the youth. So how do you find yourself in this space? What are you doing there and what do you see as the opportunity for our nation in that regard? Ah man those are many questions man. Yeah just take

34:11 them slowly. I take them slowly. M so so so one of the things that I I I saw uh let's say maybe maybe about maybe maybe about uh six or seven years before I I I transitioned out or saying this is not my future. I recognize where this is going. So what what can I what can I do to be relevant to where I'm going? Mh. And so I I I took took a course uh and certification on coaching but specifically on executive leadership coaching. Why executive leadership coaching uh and to get the coaching certification was because um it was important to recognize the trust that many people were beginning to lend me. But I need myself and to shift away from just being a pastor but now being a coach. M so there was a spiritual direction I was giving people but there was also um a context of where I need to be be aware of the realities that these individuals are going through uh in the

35:20 marketplace in the business space and especially at the decision making um points and I said where are these decisions made they're made in the executive suit yes all right at the apex of an organization so why why not do that and and and sitting there even in that class with that cohort of people most of these people were making decisions where they were and I was really fascinated learning from them and some still you know they they are coaching others but some of them have called me you know uh for for for ideas but also I've referred to many of them for ideas on that and what is your experience so as I toled as I was tooling for this next season of where I was I'm part of the person that I was beginning to be keen towards doing is optimizing performance, okay, for your leadership in the marketplace. Okay. And one of the things I got to realize that

36:20 coaching got out for me Yes. was the answers are within you. Okay. And so let's give an example for you during your days of Blanco. Yes. And when you had those five cases on you Yes. One of the things I recall about you about this that conversation is I asked you um what your intention was for Blanco. Yes. What was the vision? Why did you start that organization? What do you hope to achieve? And and what what we what we learn in coaching is being able to draw out the answers from the individual. Yes. And so I I recognized that I now was became a sounding board. So it's not necessarily bringing out solutions, but being out bringing or mining the resources that you already have and showing you and saying, "Yo, you know, Blanco, you're already here. You're already here. So these are the things you need to be able to do." So this is the case with with H with Kajjo here.

37:25 This is the thing with this supplier. Here's the thing with this supplier. here are the resources that you already have for yourself and they're already within you in itself and and just being able to do that I think I have been able to get a good perspective of what many of these entrepreneurs need. One of the thing that many of these leaders do is they they want an MBA. Yes. And in as much as an MBA can help Yes. it is does not suffice. Mhm. Because that is book knowledge. Yes. Most of our business people actually know what the industry trends are. Yes. And in this day and age, you can outsource a lot of this information to somebody and then help you with the information so that you can make a resource these resources so you can make an informed decision in itself. And so that's that's actually good in many ways. So many people gravitate towards um academic credentiing to get the

38:29 answers. Yes. And and I think and I think with this emerging uh group of or or I would say generation of young entrepreneurs and business people that I'm seeing, they're not they're not going for that sort of credentiing in itself. Mhm. and and it it is very fascinating how we were wired as we were growing up that we say the the answers are in academia but if you go to those people in academia they haven't run businesses now let me give you an example I'm not going to say which bank it was but one of my banks uh heard that I was uh I was in this entrepreneurship and invited me um for a seminar on on entrepreneurship and I saw who who was uh was who was going to run that webinar. And so the person who invited me for that I asked I asked her is this person he was an employee of the bank has this person run a business before is like no I don't think so how long have

39:30 they been in this position and she told me how long he has been in that position what business experience does he have in running an organization managing suppliers managing HR staff payroll and all that uh he may see this P&L thing and all this but humbly it hasn't. So it's like thank you but no thanks. This is not worth my time. So I'm not going to learn much. This person is theory in itself. And that's another thing that I've also got to be able to to do. Many of these entrepreneurs have a confidence challenge. But they actually, you know, that word is you actually you got this. Yes. So there's a place of you being able to know that you you you got this. Yes. I kid you not, bro. When I talk to my North American and European uh business colleagues, I tell them just just just find a successful valuebased entrepreneur in Africa, he'll eat you for lunch. Oh yeah. Eat you for lunch. Take you. If

40:36 there was an Olympics competition, he'll finish you. They'll finish you. They leave you at the starting blocks. Yes. A a valuebased entrepreneur Mhm. anywhere in South Africa, we'll just have you have you for lunch and have the champion you give the same resources you have. Give the same the do that and so in many ways there's the the entreprene entrepreneurship is character building, bro. Character development is character development in itself. And so you actually can do it you know just like the way you you you've titled this podcast African do in itself I think I think for many of the inter entrepreneurs that I've met and who have confided in me and I've been privileged to do that and even now moved into my coaching with them. One of the things I I I keep on telling them is you couldn't have got here had you not got uh the chops for it. You actually can do it. And so a lot of this is just affirming

41:38 the entrepreneur uh from this. But then fourthly which I think for me that is very fascinating is they're actually trends setters. Yes. The economy has just the way the you know you and I talk about the systemic challenges of doing business business in this country which has forced many of people to do what you call a copycat business. You see somebody with an empessa shop, you go ahead and copy that. See somebody selling smokeies, you go and do that. You see somebody opening exhibition shop to sell clothes, you'll do the same. But entrepreneurship in many ways is I call the bastion of innovation. That is where innovation is happening. Yes. And I am so fascinated to see where people are creating things from nowhere. Let me give you we were talking about her. Let me give her flowers right now. Mudonq me I'm a fan from from back in the day. All right. But what she has

42:46 done with blankets and wine. Yes. And and and just the way she has she has she has created and created an event that is an entpreneur, bro. Yeah. She's built something out of nothing. Build something out of nothing. And that's the beauty of entrepreneurship. you're you're innovating in itself. Look at what Ken Jerro has had done and and and and then again me I'm a fan from from back you know and just looking at what he was able to create from nothing. That is the beauty about it. You're innovating creating things from nothing that did not exist. And that's what enders me to many entrepreneurs is because that is what I was also doing. Yes. To to to to to start a church where there's nothing. All right. Being able to create a vision uh pray about it, get those insights and being able to do that. That is just that that that for me just gets my my my juices going in itself. So am I right

43:52 in saying yes that um because the last question is the one you haven't answered. Where do you think we are? Okay. Entrepreneurally. Yes. And where do do you feel we are going? So you want me to answer that now? But before I go there, I'm getting a sense that you're very bullish about the opportunity in an African context. I am bullish. Mhm. All right. But but there's a there's a there's a disclaimer. There's a disclaimer in itself. Yeah. Things don't happen in a vacuum. And that's why I was also on the streets in June. Yes. So so so the PS that be are not creating an enabling environment for people to thrive for ideas to percolate for ideas to come and when when somebody has an idea all right to be able to do this you have these vultures. Yes. In places of authority. Yeah, maybe at the regulator place where maybe at the tax place all these people comes and they're

44:56 just bottlenecks. Uh they are they are rent seekers um that continue to um to frustrate creative ideas that are coming out of here. And so my bullish thing comes from that there are ideas in it. This emerging generation of of of of entrepreneurs have great ideas that are solving our our our problems today. They might not be doing it at scale. Yes. All right. But when you see them in this micro environment that they have given time, I think they're going to begin to start scaling up to places where the 55 million plus Kenyans will benefit from these particular ideas. I think one of the other challenge that I'd be able to say is capital. Capital is a big challenge for entrepreneurs and capital in this country is not friendly. It's not at all. In fact, it's skeptical about its own talent where the talent is in itself. Conflict. Yes. And and and

45:56 I'd say to many, you know, uh pension funds, h you guys don't know. You guys don't know the kind of talent we have in this country and the ideas. Uh if only you would um you know tap onto them. I think I think in in in many ways the way the west has been able to um uh to to mitigate risk. All right. And I think that's what we need to be able to do uh with the capital that's available to invest in these entrepreneurs uh the emerging ones and also the ones that are exist in a you guys guys ground exactly ground people you know and and and I know in many ways we are resource starved but there's a place of of being able to to do this and I think that's a place the government can also do in coming to mitigate risk. There's a place where you can say okay we don't have the money but if venture capitalists can come in from a from outside and the government in some form

46:58 of way helps in mitigating risk in itself it will make entrepreneurs like you even much more attractive with your ideas because you'd say why am I bullish bro in another 20 years we'll be over 2 billion people on this continent yes Kenya will have a population of over 70 million ion people. Where are these people going to eat? Where are they going to live? All right. How are they going to be mobile in this place? Where are they going to go to school? All right. Who who is going to uh what are the water challenges that they're going to have? The housing challenges that they're going to have, education things, health, all these things. This is a place for entrepreneurs uh to um to bring to thrive to bring those ideas and even places of partnership with with the public sector and bring about those particular things. That is why I'm bullish you know uh it's just that the

47:59 the powers that be and all the systemic things are the things that are delaying this. But I actually think it's a champagne bottle just about it. We're not going to We're not Oh, you know you as you are speaking I recall my second episode of the African Do podcast was with Navallaya. Yes. And with the ender show the the sports the sports world, right? Yeah. And I remember there's something she said that has stuck with me since she said it. Yeah. She said we have been conditioned as a nation Yes. to accept. We have been conditioned to accept corruption. Yeah. In the sense that the figures that are banded around nowadays are massive. You know the corruption figures are massive. She said what if we are a bit more comfortable with those type of figures going to entrepreneurs. After all, you're comfortable with it being stolen. Yes. So give these guys

48:56 Yes. capitalize them. Right. Like you rightly said, that's another thing that I take home from your conversation today is these guys are you there's no match. Yes. If you captain all things held equal, these guys will have your lunch. Exactly. They'll take you to town. Yes. If you give them that opportunity, but we're not yet there. No. And I think I think my thinking is or my understanding it's also with the holders of capital. You see that question you asked the guy, your banker, and you ask who's having this conversation. Yes. And you are like, this is a waste of my time. Exactly. That's the way I feel about a lot of local bankers. I'm sitting down. I'm like, you have the title. Yes. And my guy, you have no clue what you're talking about. But think about it. I mean I I I think our financial institutions are are are products of their own their own their own context in

49:53 itself. Agreed. And so they they're not in the place of of extending risk in itself. So and again the system hasn't allowed them to do that because they're aware of what would what would you know what would jettison or what would sabotage an entrepreneur. So they're like no we won't do this. We'll go into government paper. We'll do these particular things and we'll we'll help our investors and you say I'll make you know one bank did what 10 billion in a quarter. I'm like 10 billion. Yes. You know how are you doing 10 billion? But that that's money did not come to an entrepreneur. This was using government government paper and all that interest in itself. It wasn't in investing. So they didn't make money. They didn't create that credit in itself out of productivity. No, they did produce this from you know loaning to the government in but I also think they don't know how

50:50 and and and and and that's one thing I I challenge them all the time and they get very angry when I challenge them. I tell them you guys you don't know you don't know what you don't know. So think about it. I said, so you go to a bank and you want to structure some financing for a business idea for for for a uh let me say this for a hotel chain. Yes. Do you think a bank here will will give you that money? No. I can tell you I can tell you having tried even with your with my experience in I'm telling you no. They'll ask me for a plot. They'll ask you for a plot. Yeah. Yeah. Give me do you have a carto but not on the strength of my knowledge and that's why I say that we are living and working in a market that is at conflict with itself yes there's a disconnect between Kenyan intellect and Kenyan capital yes how is it that we can live in this market where we are in awe

51:56 the people you meet the people I meet the people doing things even here. Yeah. Yeah. Um where we record this podcast. Yes. What they doing, how creative they are. Yeah. Yet these guys can't get funded. There's something wrong there. And I don't know if people see it. So yeah, the intellectual capital Yes. is functional. Yes. Uh to be able to uh perpetuate a particular way the system works. Yes. It does not look to produce. Mhm. It's more we we had this conversation before. It's more extractive. Yes. What it can benefit. Yes. Not what it can grow. Not what it can grow. True. Yeah. True. Yeah. So I think for for me the thing that I'm that I'm that I see especially now that my generation are right there making the decisions. Yeah. is to challenge them to look at this look local look local and then look young and so so so so when I get the

53:04 opportunity to speak to boardroom decision makers yes I ask them are you working towards your your exit yes what mitigating things do you have for your exit to be able to build this thing that goes beyond you because I think in in my lifetime. I'm trying to think of a business that has successfully gone through three generations. Yes. I don't think I've seen one. So, there was somebody Mhm. and then he or she gave it to their children and then their children grew it and then took it to the third generation and it's begin to do that. We don't we don't have that. We don't have that in many ways. Yes. And so mine is being able to say how do we mitigate what do we be able to do in our structures in our vision in our values to be able to do that because you say uh we are very extractive what we can get out but thinking about growth growth is

54:05 also about thinking about what happens after me what happens after I lose or I get out of the influence of the decisions that I have. So, and working with those transitions, coaching people, you know, coaching individuals, uh, and and I'm hopefully, you know, coaching now organizations or boardrooms in those particular transitions. Bro, that is the exciting place for me to be able to start tapping talent and putting them in places where, you know, they should not should not be and just exposing them uh to making those things. moving away from management training to entrepreneurial enabling. You know, you're talking about I like I like what you're saying because you're talking about local context. Yes. And those who have watched some of the earlier episode that is local context and African excellence are my two two big buzz words on on this on this podcast. Yes. But I remember Kenogi

55:07 telling me, "Have you had him here yet?" Yes. you've he's there. It's fireworks. I should check and look at that. So, um Ken telling me that um they were pitching he was he he meant a lot of entrepreneurs teaching them from the mistakes that he has made in his time. So he said they went to pitch to a group of locals. Yeah. These are boys. They they grew up together. They have reason in the corporate world and they have a kind of charmer. and he was pitching to them. Mhm. And in the middle of the pitch, he Ken was sitting in the audience and he was watching this guys pitch and he realized that these guys are pitching very Silicon Valley Dex Nini Nini Y Combinator stories. Yes. Meanwhile, these guys are guys of Ma you know they're even speaking in Shen. Yeah. So they started shooting to them questions in Shang. Now why I tell that story is because for me it speaks to

56:08 local context and we need to start getting a lot more confident and comfortable one confidence in ourselves and comfortable to pitching to our own and give the local capital Yeah. pull kicking and screaming the local capital into this story because that's when it explodes. Yeah. But we have run out of time now. But as a parting shot, yes. Where are you found now? Where do guys found find you? You know, even now as I was as I was talking to you, I was saying now I have to title this episode. So I'm going to say who with goi making oda who is I'm going to say podcaster who do where are you and where do the entrepreneurs who'd like to talk to you or talk to people like you where can they find you? So So I started a podcast. Yes. And and I piloted it then it just it wasn't working and then I got this similar space that you and big up to sear box. Yes. And and just the idea.

57:15 Yes. Dana who I have been privileged to know. Yes. You know and now he's leading us. Yes. Yeah. You see I'm putting my money where my mouth is. Right. He's leading us. Yeah. He's the one leading us in how to be able to curate our ideas and all those. Agreed. So, Kaha Nago is a place where you can listen to some of my ideas. That's the podcast I have. Uh, but you can catch me on um on LinkedIn, on uh Instagram, on Tik Tok, and also on Twitter. You make noise. Yeah. By the way, Dan is coming. Dan, we we are signing a date a date with Dan on the African do podcast because he's silently he now has a name. He's like a you know, Harry Potter. He has a name which we should not mention. I called him that name. He told me one time I came and called him that. He just looked at me. He's like, "Really, bro?" Anyway, where to find me is on those platforms. Instagram, Goera,

58:15 Instagram, uh on on Twitter, uh on um on uh Hey bro, I I got on to Tik Tok, bro. I'm not yet there. I got on Tik Tok and I love it. I love it. I love what what what the conversations are happening on that space and I I like you know the um the way these guys are just DMing me and asking me for ideas and all that is just fascinating in itself. So you could do that and we could and we could talk. Uh again my big thing here is next generation and transitions in the boardroom. uh those are the places where where so if you want me uh to to help you in those conversations maybe there's some wisdom I can bring on that that that place in itself excellent ladies and gentlemen episode 15 of the African do podcast with goi oara yeah so uh corporates out there who are looking to to talk and understand uh the youth uh this youth segment this next generation

59:18 these transitions call him up have a chat uh but ladies and gentlemen Always a pleasure. Enjoyed that tremendously. It seems like it could go on for another hour and maybe we'll start having guests come back because as we wrap up there are things I'm feeling no I we should have discussed this that and the other. But thank you very much. [Music]