← Back to the episode

John-Allan Namu — transcript

Africa Uncensored

This transcript is generated automatically by YouTube and has not been checked by a person. It misspells names and mishears words, particularly around Kenyan English and company names, so read it as a guide to the conversation rather than a quotable record. Each timestamp opens the video at that moment.

0:05 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to episode 18 of the African Do podcast. Uh, today we have a a face that is not too is quite familiar to you because the face has graced our screens uh for a while now. Um, and a good friend John Alan Namu of African Ancessed. Uh, John, journalist by training. Mhm. And we'll speak more about how he ventured away from the comfort of mainstream media into uh I call it a path of madness but exciting madness at that. So John welcome. Thank you. Thank you Leonard and it's good to be here. Excellent. So John maybe before we even get into African uncensored which which we kind of find you at the middle of your career. Let's talk a bit about John. Yes. Yeah. Um, how did you find yourself in journalism? Is this is this a planned career path or is this something that uh you stumbled upon? Maybe you can tell us about your early days and how you you

1:11 found yourself in this path. Well, well, you know, it's I I I like to think that it's it's a bit of both, right? So, there's there's some things that I was doing when I was younger that just helped the profession or rather being forced to So like I would my dad would make me read the newspaper too. Yes. You know just those small small parenting things that you think really mean nothing. I'm just helping the boy with the English kumb the boys learning and reading stories and getting intrigued by them. Um so there was that and those were some of the earlier influences. Um then there was you know a period where there was some really I'd say um bad reporting about about um someone in my family and it cost us as a family alone. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And and and I I said that I'm if I ever got get the opportunity I'm going to be the sort of journalist that tells stories correctly.

2:08 So by that time I'd kind of like settled on this idea that I'm going to do something that will likely be in the communication space um out there. So my first thing was international relations when I when I joined university. That was my major. But then I sat in IR classes and I'm like I I can't imagine myself being this. So sort of I can't see myself in this future. I I can't. And and then I went to a journalism class. Okay. And I switched my majors. Mhm. Um and yeah and and I went into broadcast journalism and it was interesting. It was something that came naturally to me and from there it it just kind of took off. Right. So post university where do you find yourself? Post university KTN. So I started at KTN when while I was at university. Okay. Yes. So uh the the short story is that the managing editor at the time came to give a a talk to students and he apparently was impressed by some

3:05 of the questions that I was asking. This this I learned from from my lecturer years later. Okay. Um and he called me for an internship. I went and I stayed. Yeah. And and it was it was around 2005 right after the referenda. Yes. Yeah. So I I entered in those very interesting times in Kenya's politics. So very interesting this top student manenos is a thing because h from way back in the 70s episode 12 we had Roskimoto who was also a journalism student at University of Nairobi and found her way into the weekly review because Hillaryeno came to to um or to to university and asked for the top two students. She wanted a a woman and a man. So it's great to see that some of these trends cut across generations and and there is a space for merit. That's an interesting connection then I'd say now I have with with Rose Kimodo. But your characterization of top student

4:06 makes me very uncomfortable. Why? Why? Why? I've never been that guy who's always been at the top. I think I look at top student a bit differently. I don't look at it as top student being a Yes. I I think and I tell young people this all the time that I think your story will be told at the end or as it progresses you to you all that happens at graduation time is that's that's just one phase and I think I can now say having watched your career and what you've gone on to do that you qualify you do qualify in my definition and I'll stick by it that you do qualify for for top student asant asant and in that case yes you go to you go to to KTN but at KTN in the early days if I recall right you are a mainstream journalist you you hadn't gone the way of investigative journalism you were just doing the run-of-the-mill stuff you covering stories uh sometimes you at the news desk and you are in in

5:05 the news and so on so how is that journey and how was your first few years immersion in in mainstream media so so the thing about um mainstream media especially At that time you had to be a very quick study. So I found myself doing a lot of things very early. So um I was and also just by chance. So I I was I was doing voiceovers for guys in on the business desk. Um and then you know you start to learn a little bit about business reporting. You're on the general news desk because you're the intern. You're sent to all of the assignments that nobody Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All of them. So the 11 p.m. assignment as well as the 8:00 a.m. assignment. So you start to get a very good sense of the breadth of the kinds of topics that you you cover, but very quickly you find that it's not edifying. It it doesn't it doesn't fulfill you. You're just doing like Yeah. You know these short stories for the news. Yes.

6:03 Especially after you you do like doing story number one the time was like a big like huge like you're doing the top story of the day. Once you do it a few times, you're like, "Okay, it's kind of the same, you know, and what's beyond that." So, so that's how I spent I'd say my first year. Yeah. And and then, you know, so 2006 as well, then I start to fall into features cuz now that's kind of like more my vibe. You you're allowed you're allowed to write a little more colorfully. You can spend more time with with with characters, with you know, your interviewees and build a story, right? And it's kind of like enterprise journalism. And then this guy walks into a news into our newsroom. Um and uh at first he's assigned to the sports desk. Yeah. And you know because he's from Costto, he doesn't have a lot of friends. So he eat lunch alone. Then one

6:58 day I just call him, hey, we go and we have lunch together. And and this is who? Moa. Moa. Yes. Yes. And thus began the friendship. Okay. But Mo always had this eye for investigative work and I was like, "Yeah, I kind of like it, but I've never really thought about it." He did like his first investigation and it was I'd say it was a slam dunk, right? Because it was very confronting. It was it was about um a sex toy shop somewhere in Nairobi. Oh, really? And at that time like guys like what what this immorality guys have admitted. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ah. Oh, it is this immorality you're showing us on KTN. Blah blah blah. Like guys really had in the newsroom guys were really hitting. Not even in the public. Oh, the public. Yes. But in the newsroom, oh my gosh, what is this? Blah blah blah. No, no, no. You know, people sometimes when when a good product

7:57 comes, you know, masked in something else, you don't recognize it at that time. But how does he get the leeway to do the story? He's he's a very pushy person. Okay. And in a good way. Yes. Right. Like he he both pushy and he has a very good work ethic. That's I think something that people don't see about him. Okay. He's got an incredible work ethic and I identified with that because I have a similar work ethic. And so he does this first one and then you know a second one comes and I'm like you know what I'm interested in this and doing interesting. Yeah. And we got we earlier on we also started getting sent on assignments together right KTN had an English bulletin a suili bulletin. So two reporters would always be sent to the same assignment. And then now that's how I guess the chemistry start s start s start s start s start s start s start

8:45 s start s start s start s start of bu built. Then one day he there's a story that comes across his desk and he shows the managing editor and he's like um would you like to do this with somebody from the English desk. He's like yeah I'd like to do it with John Allen. And my managing editor was like ah no man is a soft guy. Yeah yeah. And he was like the guy was like no I know this guy. Yeah. let's do this thing and you know then we we a couple of stories down the road and we're now properly doing investigative work. That's how it started. That's that's very interesting. So you guys now you you kind of own that space because I can I I think I can say with as an observer as a consumer of your content. Yeah. You guys defined what the investigative journalism space was in a Kenyan context because I I I can't recall the name of the show. What was it on? The inside

9:41 story. Yes. Yes. And and you the inside story. Yes. That was it. And you kind of really owned this space for a few years because you're the ones who would take time and it was not really routine in that it was not that this thing is here every day, but you would kind of build up, build up, build up. And then when we start seeing the teasers that this thing is coming, everyone will be like these guys are on to something. So how was that journey now when it takes root the partnership has now formed and you're now going ahead. It was it was very exciting as you know as a young as a young guy doing something interesting that you're interested in but also something that's kind of newish in the market. So what people forget is that years before like when I was in Primo the inside story as a product used to exist but it was this magazine show. It used to be hosted by Julie Gishuru. Yes.

10:33 And I remember watching it when I was younger and there was like some in-depth almost investigative stuff that they'd cover and I really identified with that. So when the opportunity came back I was like yeah I want to bring this brand back. But it was very exciting like doing stuff that nobody in the you know in in legacy media was doing at the time. Um especially for broadcast um it got us opportunities to travel and see the country which was very eye opening for me. Um and it it got me to understand Kenya in a completely separate context. You know, when you're investigating when you're investigating crime, at first it's one story and then another story and then another story. Then you start to see trends and then you start to see connections and then you start to build a picture of a system. Yes. So that was like it was like a university degree in

11:29 a sense like you're studying a country and you're studying a profession at the same time and this subg genre that you're be you know you're building your skill in and it was like fantastic. I I I really have no regrets about that time in my life. It was really something. um as you're speaking I I'm then thinking when does Kenya rear its head in the context of what you're doing and and and I say to contextualize that so when does the system start to push back when do the phone calls start coming in and people start saying vanaidi you know so it came quite a bit later right so so let me let me just like do like a a short like detour, right? So 2005 to 2010 I'm at KTN. From about 2006, we start investigative work with 2010 I'm feeling like okay, I've done this thing but I don't feel like I'm growing as a journalist. True. Right. And so I decide to move to the nation.

12:40 Okay. Right. Um Moa obviously is very upset. He calls my mom. He calls the bosses. He calls everybody to try and get me to stay. But um there was one thing that my boss told me like once you made a decision don't don't you burn your boats and you you go forward. So tough as it was to to have ended that partnership at that time I did. I go to nation um and now start to see what it's like to do this thing but as a solo act in a yes because I felt I need at that time to just develop my style, my skill set. M um and it went really well. So my first um brush with Sakali was when I was doing the Felician Kabooa story. Which story? Felician Kabuga. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yes. Yeah. So that was around 2012. And you know, you go you go along these things not having interacted with how I guess nefarious the state can be some and it's shocking because you know what

13:45 happened was you know I found out later like they they reached some of of my sources possibly threatened them shared some bad intel with them so that it could poison the entire the story. Yeah. And that's what happened and it was a huge knock in my confidence. huge knock. Fortunately, because of the sort of like reporting structures we have at at the nation and a number of times it was viewed by our editorial board before it went out and it was okayed that saved me. So there were some guard rails within the organ. Yeah, there were guardrails that really helped um you know save my my career and I keep telling guys whenever I train them had there not been those guardrails I wouldn't have been here today. And then um you know Moad then joins me at at Nation. Okay. And stays for 4 months. Oh really? Yeah. Does one story and he's like no I don't like the bureaucracy here. It's

14:40 time to bounce. And when he's bouncing he's like hey see we go back together. By that time I'm at the nation I thought you know like I kind of done this thing. I have this kind of stain in my career. Do I want to to stay here and and continue to live that down or just go and you know start a fresh by that time um you know um Sam Cho is at uh at uh the standard group is just taken over and he wants to reinvigorate the investigated brand. Yeah. And so he he calls on both of us. We go back now to answer your question. It it must have been um it must have been Yes. It was a story that we did about terrorism and the impacts of terrorism in East Africa. Yeah. And we were following the life and the death of um of um Sheh Abu Drogo very very fiery Mombasa Mombasa cleric cleric. Yeah. Yeah. Who had been killed the year before. And we now like looked

15:43 into his story, looked into how the war on terror was mutating into this thing where extrajudicial killings became the norm. The norm. Yeah. And we published the story and Sally now starts calling and asking our boss, Con, you guys are not patriots. Why Why are you allowing these boys to do these things? And we did that in August of 2013. A month later, like we did it August the 22nd, 2013, September the 21st, 2013, what happens? Westgate and like now again the entire newsroom comes down on us. You see these guys that you've been Yeah. Look at these stories that you're telling us. You see now this is why guys like these should be killed, right? Then so we're like now what do we do? We decide to investigate what's happening at Westgate because there are also some relations. Yeah. And then also inconsistencies in the story that was coming out a month after

16:42 Westgate we come out with our reporting on it and it's hugely embarrassing for the security apparatus but specifically the military. Yes. And you know in Kenya you don't you don't talk badly about the military. We shall J. I'm telling you, you know, and and it wasn't that we set out to embarrass that cuz we've got tons of friends inside the troops, right? But, you know, when you see guys shopping, you know, carrying out all sorts of shopping bags, stealing from jewelry stores, you know, it was it was something that was important for us to report. So then we report that and uh the the the day after the story. So my phone's blowing up the whole night. Um obviously with people having watched the story that this time now Twitter is you know is is becoming a thing here and the in the morning I get a message from the DCIO Kilimani police station. Uh we want

17:40 you to report to our station to explain certain facts about the story. The story. And so I'm like Allah. Uhhuh. I'm like this I think I call Moa. I'm like Moa, have you seen a message from Adi? He's like, "Yeah, man." So, we call our boss and we're like, "Hey, we've received. What do we do?" A guy's like, "You come to the office and we'll sort that other thing out." That afternoon, um you know this this saying that guys have under Yes. Right. From Kimo. Yes. At that press conference, Yes. He told the country how we we are not patriots, how we should be arrested, how we are you know just tarnishing the name of the country and you know how can be doing this when the country is under siege you know. Yes. And so that was like the f the second time we get into you know loggerheads with Kali. The third is what now caused me to to leave KTN. if if I

18:40 was to market that way actually you know I've never really done it like story by story in what you know me to lead obviously I've I always had this dream about you know having my own um media company especially after after winning the CNN award that was kind of like for me what would be the next phase if I don't go to CNN yeah so in 2014 we decided to do a story about the election prior the year prior 2013 election 2013 election. Remember there was a lot of controversy about whether um Uhuru and RT cross the 50 50 plus one 50 plus one threshold. Yes. And so we decide to interrogate that go and we get um all the forms 34A from across the country and we decide to count yourselves ourselves and uh long story short we were told you can only count 12 constituencies not the entire country. This is coming up from her. And then we start to see our work being editorialized, not shaped or not

19:45 sharpened, but editorialized being and people being awfully pedantic about stuff that that they shouldn't be. Yes. You know, remove this sentence. Why did why didn't you speak to this guy when we've spoken to pretty much and we constantly were shelling out proof. This is how we've done this. This is our process. Da da da da da da da da. The thing that broke the the the the the camel's back for me in that instance and it told me that I I don't have much time left here is the Sunday that the story is supposed to run, April 21st, I believe. 21st 22nd there. Um I've written we've written our scripts. The story has been previewed. We've promoted the story. It's been watered down massively obviously, but we're like, you know what, we can't win them all. The story is the story. The story it runs the way it does. Yeah. See, we're working in the standard group. Yeah. The

20:40 headline of the nation is our story. And I don't just mean our story in that they coincidentally did the same story. They had quotes from people that Moa and I interviewed alone in their story. Right. They had quotes. Yes. and they had information from our story that we know it's three guys. It's me, you and this guy, right? And the quotes follow in a in a pattern that you're like, "This guy wasn't interviewed separately." This is exactly the quote that we have. I have the headline saved somewhere. It's part of the the sto that I'm going to be talking about later in my in my book. Um, but that showed me like, okay, not only have they attempted to water down our story by threatening people in our editorial board, but now they want to water it down by now sharing it with a rival media company. And then I showed that to my boss at the time, Joe. He was

21:40 livid, but we were like, you know what? Let's just carry on. In my head, I was like, this is the last time I'm going to do something and and make this kind of an effort because it was a big effort. Wow. For a for a media company when these these kinds of things are happening in this climate. So, it just kind of, you know, clicked for me that I was like, we're not going to we're not going to last much longer. That was 2014. We registered African censored 2014. 2015, I left. So now you have taken me where the story has kind of just like your journalism the story has brought us here. Yes. So basically you're telling us that um and this is interesting because um you see this a lot from an entrepreneurial perspective. You're driven by something. Yeah. And you you realize that you start getting frustrated at what when you were younger and more impressionable was a

22:37 thing and then the thing that you loved or where you're doing the thing that you love you start seeing the cracks. Yeah. And you you for in your case if I understand you right you're saying that you wanted to tell stories in a certain way. Yeah. And you were ready for the stories to lead you where they will. Yeah. and let the story come out and be told. Exactly. But you then began to f find out that who you're telling the story for or under. They don't have that same appreciation always in the sense that you have an example you've given us when the guardra saved you. Yeah. But you have equally probably more example when the sane system now shackled you and stopped you from telling the story. Mhm. So you you decide to now go into not just storytelling but you go into payroll into basically into entrepreneurship. So tell us that story how you you you've

23:35 told us how the mindset but what do you go through to now set up now African and Zenz? That's a good that's that's a good um question. So it it starts with relationships that I formed while I was at the nation. So um by 2012 2013 you're starting to see a bit of drying up of the resources uh to do investigative work inside legacy media companies. And so and at the same time that these um organizations those HIV which is a Dutch organization that start to offer journalist journalism grants to do investigative work and and I was like you know what I'm this would be a good thing for me let me apply for this grant. So I applied for a grant in 2011. I got it. I did some some reporting and over time we now develop a relationship. Um I get a a fairly big grant to support reporting at KTN. Okay. And that also strengthens the relationship. Um and and

24:35 when we decide we're going to leave, I just go back to them and say, "Look, this is what I'm thinking about doing. um we don't have much capital beyond the things that the the amount of money that we've saved. Um and we need to be able to sustain ourselves for about 2 years as we understand this game, but this is what we want to do. So, can you fund us? And they did. And so, the first the first grant that we got um allowed us to hire a couple of guys. Yeah. We started out seven guys um and you know sub subleas lease an office and just work. Now obviously at the time you have no appreciation for what it means to to process payroll. Yes. For what it means to pay your taxes by the by the 9th. Yes. You know what it means to do your returns. What it means to do to be compliant. That was about the first two years of my life. Just understanding both the

25:38 compliance regime that you need to understand for the government but also because a lot of the funds that we were getting were coming from these philanthropic organizations, the reporting process and the language. Yes. Of reporting. Yes. Which was a trip for me. um of doing that and then now internally managing your staff, managing payroll, keeping expectations at a certain place, you know, being able to pay um salaries that um you know that that are comparable to, you know, the market rate. Yes. Um but also keeping people inspired by this vision that you have. So it was as the late Mishuki would say a bit like juggling liver, right? you you get one thing right, maybe you get the journalism right, but you're causing delays with these partners that you have to report to that sour a relationship that you have to go and fix. You forget about this. There's you miss a couple of days of um your

26:36 your tax payments. There's a penalty that you have to pay. Um so I really learned by doing to I learned quite a bit about how to you know to set up a business by doing but mine is not a typical journey in that I did get startup you know support from from one of these philanthropic organizations and then a lot of the savings that I that I also had went into the organization. Yeah. So let's park that bus there a bit and we'll come back to it and go a bit into what you've brought because you brought some very interesting and pertinent entrepreneurial challenges. One, so I have two questions for you on that front. Yeah. One, did it frustrate that you had no um local philanthropic options to to to go and talk to Yeah. about your potential funding that it was only foreign. Yeah. That's question number one. And question number two, do you feel now that you look back that those two years uh what we call in

27:41 entrepreneurial circles school fees was heavy because you learning what compliance is, what it means and what the price is for non-compliance. Do you feel that you paid a heavy price for that? I did. So to to answer your first question um look uh that thing bothers me till today. Yeah. For this reason there's there's a very warped sort of relationship that we as Kenyans have with this idea of um of um foreign philanthropy. Yes. For good reason and sometimes for bad reason. Right. Because what foreign philanthropy has meant in the country sometimes is that there are dictates that are being handed down from a place that we don't know that are shaping the lives or misshaping the lives of our people and there are people who have misused these kinds of funds to do all sorts of dirty stuff not just in Kenya across Africa that I completely appreciate and and you

28:43 know you you have to be aware of that if you're going to apply for this funding but the other side of this coin is that there are people who genuinely are dedicating resources to build certain industries that otherwise not have the capital existed you know and you're stuck between this narrative versus what the reality is of what it is that you want to do public interest work at least the kind of work that we have done hasn't paid you know it doesn't pay and there is no person or organization that is willing look at it to back that kind of thing aside from via advertisements and then advertisements bring demands and those demands hamper the work. I saw all of this while I was at KTN. So that was the the dilemma that I had of course in the eyes of the public. It then opens you up to the stories you're writing. The number one refrain is ah foreign

29:41 funded foreign funed foreign funded guys unpatriotic foreign funded guys. Exactly. And you know my answer has always been okay you think you know we're funded our funding is foreign tell me where you could see evidence of that in the storytelling right that so my answer had always been the storytelling but at a certain point in time you want the answer to be I wish or rather there are these local guys that I can turn to that I pray that that happens if it doesn't happen I'm going to become one of those guys that's what I've committed now the your second question was about Um, second question was about now the lack of support structure. Yes. With regards to the system of becoming an entrepreneur. Oh yes. Hey man, that was tough. And you know I I I got into a bit of trouble like in 2019 when you know we get our first commercial um bit of work which is significant. that

30:40 allows us to shore up quite a bit of our revenue, balance out against um the the grants that we're getting because the grants never cover everything. You're always, you know, shelling out. Yeah. But then commercial work doesn't work on the same cycle as this kind of grant work. With grant work, you're able to stretch it out over a certain period of time knowing that there's certain things. So, there's a bit of a luxury. Commercial work, the deadline is a deadline. So we miss a few deadlines at the beginning and it puts us under enormous pressure because you can't get paid until the work is done. The work is done. So what do I do? Friends, fool's end. You know, you start borrowing here and there. Eventually I just go to a bank and I'm like, you know what? I need this money to be able to my company. And that was painful because that was 2019.

31:29 2020 COVID comes. Yeah. and grant revenue is being put on pause. This commercial revenue, we are not sure. Fortunately, things opened up for us on this front and that allowed us to slowly come back. But we had to cut guys salaries, you know, in half um delay certain payments. It was a very very depressing time. Yeah. Very depressing. But that to use your phrase, school fees. Yes. that has shaped my understanding of of this industry in ways that I would never have understood had I not gone through that. What I like about what you're saying is, you know, I've become I've I've come to appreciate the value of having a seat at the table. Mhm. Whichever way I I even argue that the seat at the table is the most important. Mhm. Let a guy go Yeah. and enter the space like now the market at large is benefiting. I know that for a fact from the fact that you took a seat

32:40 at the table as an owner, paid your school fees. Yeah. But now when you sit down and talk to other young people who are coming in the space, you can tell them from a point of experience and you can tell them that there's this grant money. Yeah. It's good and it's bad. M take it informed. Exactly. You know there's also this commercial commercial money. It has its limitation. Yeah. Take it with an open mind because what I feel we are lacking is enough people who are subject matter experts who have become owners. That's true. You when you're speaking about media you're not speaking do you know you're a media trained professional. You've worked. You know the good and bad of the local ownership of the media. You know the good and bad of the grant money. You know the good and bad of commercial. So you can then go and build a new story. Yeah. But

33:37 let's come back to to now African uncensored. From a timing perspective where where are we when when you start African uncensored where we this is 2015 November 20 29th. So you're kind of you're with Kenya's digital revolution. Yes. Which kind of opens up the airwaves in a different way in the sense that the internet gives Yeah. something like African uncensored legs that you you don't need to produce content for hope that it goes into one of the big media houses. You can actually say guys are breaking these stories like this. So how's that experience for you? So it was it was good to have our own platform to grow. Yeah. It was a study in in uh be humble by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Because what what um what people and and this is something that I tell my team um as the African censored brand grows, grow your own brand. Right? When I left KTN to start Africa uncensored, the assumption

34:44 was that the kind of brand equity that I had grown was transferable, right? Like I can just take it and plug it here and it'll work. Yes. And the the signs seemed like that might work until we actually started doing our work. We are starting to grow a completely new brand. People know you, they don't know the brand. So they won't trust the brand and they're wondering why you've left a nice paying job. And so they're not really invested in in you. So there's a lot of hard hard yards that you have to make to be able to do that. But the great thing about it was that even if um you know people weren't paying attention to us, we could kind of build in the dark and publish these important stories and let people sort of like see them from a completely different and separate and you know lens and and in perspective than they would have if I was in in

35:41 legacy. And and that journey leads us, you know, from strength to strength, from one big story to the next to the next to the next to a story that then now gets us recognized around 2018. Our model actually was that yes, we'll break these stories on our platform, but we'll also sell them to legacy media. Okay. I learned very quickly that that money that I thought was in the newsroom had now dried up. It was it took it took our first client 8 months to pay us for what they bought. The story for the story that they bought and we sold it to them at a pittance on the cheap. Yeah. On the cheap because h these are these are my mates. I'm trying to build a name. Let me take a cut on this one. When they pay back at least it'll help me run my bashara wi. Can you imagine having a big chunk of your revenues not booked? you understand for eight months in what it

36:39 does. So obviously now to the 2019 story that now also of course that's what pushed you to the bank. Yeah. Pushed me to the bank eventually. But but that experience in terms of the storytelling was was really refreshing because I I fortunately had a team of guys who were very missiondriven, who believed in it, who in what it is that we're doing, who took initiative to do things when I was just completely like, you know, held up or or split seven different ways. And the the early days of African censored were really a good time for also building a culture in our organization. What you what you are what we are that has saved us more times than I care to admit. Wow. Because there are times when you've done stories and there's no response. There was a time one year where we did so few stories cuz we were just trying to survive. um that you know

37:37 you look and you're like man if this goes much longer I just I'm just going to have to fold up and go hat in hand uh back to you know to to to KTN but our culture that never say die thing that thing of you know it's important work that we're doing um really I saw it with a couple of people in our newsroom who just kept pushing and kept saying no don't give up you do this thing we are doing the right thing we're on the track and that's really what brought me to where we are today. Very nice. So you you you you you're touching on some rather weighty entrepreneurial and one of the things that I share with you um and it's great that you brought it up is one thing that it's important for people out there who are looking at entrepreneurship to recognize. Yeah. You spoke about your leaving KTN Mhm. And um particularly when you have been flying high in a corporate environment, there's

38:40 a fallacy when you think that it is John Alan Namu flying high. And I think what many of us forget is that it is John Alan Namu of KTN. Exactly. Or John Alan Namu of Nation. And you're leaning on the bigger brand to your brand, so to speak. and you walk out assuming that John Alanu is carrying this weight. But you go out and you quickly realize that John Allan standing on his own of first thing his guys are asking African uncensored what is that like what's that and and and you later on as many of us found out people in the corporate space even some of your colleague are maybe outwardly wishing you well but inwardly saying where is this guy going you can tell can tell when a guy you know that one where they're like, "Ah, you're doing all good. That's wish you all the best. Wish you all the best. All the best." They're almost holding you and praying for you because they're like

39:47 up and down. Things are What is wrong with this? But you're alone, man. You're alone. Okay. So, now African uncensored, you've weathered some storms. You've gone through the school fees. Uh pandemic comes and goes. It was It's interesting to see that. I see it from the lens. And I remember we did an interview with you uh during the pandemic and how it was impacting the restaurant space but you now weather the storm. Mhm. So how does it look now going forward post pandemic? So post pandemic what it looks like is that we we are now at a place where we've got a good chunk of our revenues coming from stuff that we generate and sell, right? Um so we and these are both products and services over the 10 years and imagine it's been 10 years of African uncensored of African censored 10 years this year. Oh yes of course 2015 and it feels just like yesterday you know. So over the 10

40:45 years we've built like very serious skills as investigative journalists. Skills that we don't just use for ourselves but skills that are transferable in training in research etc. So we're trying to build up those verticals within our business so that it can support the work that we the core of the work. There's also now like white label productions that we do for various organizations. Um and then now like with our training and curriculum development we we have like four different I guess you can in food you call it a skew right but four different like segmentation. So we do early career journalists, mid-career and early specialists, newsroom leadership and then as well as news newsroom strategy and then organizations that have storytelling needs like like like the ones that we have. So that's really growing. Um the other thing that we we now have is finally the numbers that we require to

41:44 do investigative like proper investigative work consistently and across the year cuz that had always been a challenge cuz you know I'm on the dance floor and on the balcony so I'm doing the stories but I'm also running the organization. Yes. So what this this time and covid etc has done it's allowed for me to build a management team around myself it's allowed for me to to build structures within the organization but also growth within the organization. So when a person joins they can grow to a certain level. So like for instance our chief operating officer started as a digital editor. Okay. Right. Um and our finance manager started as a finance officer. Okay. Our HR start in a completely different place. our head of investigation started as a cameraman, right? Our head of camera just started as a cameraman. So there's there's that feeling that you you see that now this

42:38 organization is kind of getting legs on its own. And and there's there's people underestimate the value of systems in an organization. Yeah. In in in in any entrepreneurial venture. Yes, systems are important, but systems are important when you need them, right? There's a there was a point in time where the company was didn't require a lot of the systems that we that we have. It was small, were few guys and a lot of things could get done very very quickly because you're kind of like all around the same table. But as it grows and as I'm now out there looking for, you know, you know, to develop business, business um opportunities, get more funding, etc., the organ the organization has to run, right? Um a good friend of mine told me that um and and I noticed this after he told me last year that you know that year 2024 was one of your most

43:35 successful years because for a month you left the company. I'd gone, you know, out um for a month. It was a trip that I had for a month. Yes. In the most crucial month of the year, June 2024. I wasn't in in Nairobi. and we still did well. Last year we also had earlier on in the year one of our biggest investigations called title deals that um that was 2023, late 2023 going into 2024 that I had nothing to do with producing. Wow. Then we have the fertilizer story in 2024 that is being led by someone else. What my friend was telling me was that that's success because if you're no longer, you know, the one at the guy, yeah, you know, you're not the one at the cold face. You you now have time to think about where this organization goes. That's a good thing. So, I'd say that obviously it's still a very choppy, you know, the waters are still choppy. What Trump has

44:34 done has unsettled everything in every single space of of like philanthropy and fundraising. It's not just with USA that something that people need to burst as a myth. But it has completely upset the apple but even in these choppy waters I'm feeling quietly confident that what we have is is is a brand a company that will serve Kenya that will serve Africa for years to come in public interest storytelling which is important for us. Nice. It is. So that's that's my answer man. I like what you're saying because again you're touching on really weighty topics from an entrepreneurial perspective because I share your sentiment about the systems because the way I put it is this. Yeah. We have lots of people who um start entrepreneurial ventures. We even have a track record of entrepreneurial ventures in Kenya that grew quite big. Mhm. But why in this country that has such depth of

45:43 intellect do we fail to become like continental or international titans. We have all the requisite blocks and I argue that it's systems. It is systems. Yes. But there's also something else. Yes. And um Dr. Wendo made it very clear um to us on our podcast actually this past Monday. Yes. You've noticed that in Kenya there's a there's a there's a stage to which you grow. Yes. And then the system starts become weaponized against you. Agreed. All of a sudden tax like everything. Yeah. And if if you're able to navigate that then there's the political system that wants to predate on you having a bit of a conf that's an even bigger problem than existence. Agreed. And the moment we start to see that and and you know not to talk about the specific person we're talking about off off camera, but you said something so astute that there is no counterbalance for the that kind of

46:49 predatory system that we have in this country that allows for us to now just be free and just grow. No, just do the things that you if you're going to fail because you know you're not able to pay your taxes, that's one thing. But if you're going to be failed by people who want to predate and suck, you know, the the the life out of you out of you, then that's a completely different kettle of fish. And if we do not have this conversation about why it is we have systemic predatorial you know like mannerisms in our politics hemmed into our economy then we'll always have this cycle of guys who you know like they take off and they burn bright and then something happens and we never see them again and then you hear years later what the story was and you're like ah okay then now you start to argue that there's a loop first I the loop is it's all

47:48 interconnected what is the price that we are paying yeah from having the bulk of the wealth in the country being having a dotted or straight line to the politics yes and I think that's the price that we are paying that entrepreneurs who have the ability to thrive independent of the quote unquote system are allowed to thrive to a certain level. Exactly. And that level is the level that is viewed as acceptable to the powers that be. And if you're becoming too big, will clamp you down. They clamp down on you. They clamp down on you. Yeah. But I celebrate the fact here is what I celebrate because interesting. I recorded Money D who we both know. Yeah. And what I celebrate is the more of you that stay in the game, you see the space a bit differently. And I think that what you are doing is going to build this into a crescendo that is unstoppable. And what I mean by that is you don't

48:56 look at your success independently. That even as you do, you're building teams. Yeah. Yeah. And those teams are being inspired to do their own thing. Mhm. They may be with you and they may choose to grow with you. They may choose to plant their own path like you did, but as long as you continue to ch them out, I think that's a great plus for that. And that's why I'm obsessive about having a seat at the table. What it means for us to have a seat at the table is there are so many industries and so many opportunities and there are some things that are unstoppable. M I dare say that the the the the system and the democratization of information that we are now living in is unsettling many as we know because they control what we consume as media. They would control how we consume it, you know, within limitations, but they would control.

49:51 Now, anyone can wake up and say on X or Twitter or whatever medium, and there's a wide variety of media, and that's a powerful tool. So, I really hope I live to see it, but I'm glad that we're living in an age where we can see this opening up. Let's come to the future. Okay, we have talked about history. one you by virtue of the work you do you have a great pulse on the nation you have a great pulse on what we hear uh what is happening as we say va ground you know you you you're you're on the ground so what do you see on that in a Kenyan context in an African context with this bulging youth demographic what are you seeing what are you hearing what's the sense you get so um a very senior journalist who I I have a lot of respect for says that no every 20 years there's this sort of like generational question that is is that a country faces. Mhm. Um and and we are at one of

51:01 those points right now except for me I don't think that it is so much generational as it is existential. It's both. Okay. Right. So what June to me represented June last year. June last year. Um what June represented wasn't so much the the confrontation of um of a political elite, you know, over a finance bill. That that was that was the spark, right? What the story is is a lot more similar to what we've been discussing here. There is a dissatisfaction with how um the country is organized because the country is not organized for the success of the many. Yes. Right. It's organized for the success of the few at the expense specifically at the expense of the many. So laws will be crafted, policy will be made. um enforcement will be you know will be enforcement arms will be geared towards ensuring that that system sort of like engenders itself. So the the

52:10 point we are at as a country is that we must contend with the damage that it this system has done but also the benefits right of what this system has had has had because you know we like to speak about this system as if it doesn't have benefits to some people even to people like myself. Yes. Right. The schools that I went to were those exclusive schools that were part of this system. Yes. Right. the the the opportunities that I've had I've had as a as a consequence of the networks that I've you know been built but also within a very limited sort of like skew of this same same system. Now there's so there's a level of self-acceptance that there are things that I have done or I am a part of that are helping cement this you know this system for for a long period of time. True. What must I do? So that's really the question that that we are being faced. If I was to reduce it to

53:10 something um to something as small as that, it's the what must I do to ensure that Kenya survives that we have a new mindset um that that allows for the success of the many and the few together. Yes. Right. And that's the same question that's being faced across Africa. When you see someone like Ibrahim Trayor being celebrated year on year, people forget that he he is part of a military ha that took you know power from another military ha. Yes. But how I see it is that what West Africans are saying is that this is a better alternative than the kind of used to leadership that we have and fortunately for them it seems to be delivering results. Right. You're seeing across the continent, you know, hikma in in Zambia. Yeah. You have what happened in Botswana. You're having, you know, very interesting debates in South Africa, one of the most, you know,

54:13 fundamental economies to to to the continent. True. That are really about this same question. We are we we have a systemic issue that we must confront and a population that will not wait for us to if we don't Exactly. if we don't. So when you see things popping off in Mozambique, when you see things popping off in different countries, draw back, sort out the the the things every every story has its own uniqueness, but sort it out and and look at it from the Africa perspective. And that is the moment that we're living through. We lived through the moment where um colonial leadership was supplanted by by military and sometimes dictatorial leadership. Yes. We then now get into the democracy state and now we're looking at what the limits of democracy are under kleptoc kleptocratic rule and now there's another phase of our rulership and our economies and our

55:14 social interactions that we need to confront and the youth are at the center of it. That's how I see it. So where is African uncensored going in this? Our objective is to be the last word. Excellent. To be the last word in public interest storytelling in Africa. Um it doesn't mean that we will be the biggest. Yes. Although that's a good byproduct. M it means that in an era where the information ecosystem is polluted that people will come to us because they know that they can rely on us. So what we have been engaging in over the past 10 years and I hope we'll continue to engage in is the trust building exercise of doing stories well doing them um because we are interested in the truth not so much in in um you know propping up different people etc. were interested in a story and to have two things to continue to have two things, curiosity but also journalistic

56:18 skepticism of everything that we see. Um, and we hope to be the last word for 100 years to come or at least be part of that. So, what I'm doing is trying to build a 100redyear company. Wow. Wow. Uh, there we go, man. Uh, you were worried that the hour would not Are we Are we at the hour? We're at the hour, man. I've just been signaled that we at the hour, but man, what a story. I mean, John, first of all, I've I've I've started giving flowers when I can. So, first of all, man, it's exciting. And I've chosen to be the optimist. I share a lot of your thoughts, but I've chosen to be the optimist. and you represent some of the optimism that I feel in the sense that we are not waiting to be told but we are seeking to tell ourselves and tell our own stories in our own way and the fact that you're championing that not only championing it by telling the

57:17 stories but championing it by training additional people to come on this journey with you and tell the stories in their way but sticking to a certain ethos and a certain truth Yeah, that we all excites me. I say that culture always and the fact that we have a culture that is unashamedly African, very proud to be African. H for me, I choose to lean on that as my hope. I don't have all the answers yet, but I think it puts us in goodstead. It does. It does. And and neither do I. I don't have the answers as well, but I like what you said. Culture be comes before systems. Exactly. You know sometimes when you're doing things you think that you're doing the right thing but you don't really know. So it's very affirming to hear that. Excellent. So John Alan Namu thank you very much for being our guest in episode 18 of the African Do podcast. We have enjoyed and we have learned a lot

58:14 from you and we wish you all the best with African uncensored. Keep telling our stories and you espouse the name of our podcast because you're an African and you're doing so we appreciate that. Erh, greatly. Ladies and gentlemen, that wraps up episode 18 of the African Do podcast. John Alan Namu with lots of stories about us, where we're going, where we are, and we thank him very much for being our guest. Asantis and have a nice day. [Music]