Kanyi Ohawa — transcript

She Didn't Make Logos. She Built Brands That Last. 17 Years Later She's Still Creating | Kanyi Ohawa

This transcript is generated automatically by YouTube and has not been checked by a person. It misspells names and mishears words, particularly around Kenyan English and company names, so read it as a guide to the conversation rather than a quotable record. Each timestamp opens the video at that moment.

0:05 Greetings, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to episode 59 of the African Loop Podcast. Today, we are very privileged to have with us Kinya Ohowa, founder of All and Sundry, and we'll discover what All and Sundry is in the course of the podcast. Kinya, welcome to the African Loop Podcast.
Asante sana. Thank you for having me.
Excellent. So, Kinya, as I was studying the African Loop Podcast, I was trying to figure out what exactly you are, what exactly you have done. And I I see a lot of diversity there, and so I won't even try. I'll let you define it for us. But, maybe you can tell us about All and Sundry. What Before we get to All and Sundry, you can tell us about Kinya. Where you're coming from, what's your inspiration behind entrepreneurship, how

0:54 did you end up as an as an entrepreneur, because we established you've been one quite early. So, maybe just start with who Kinya is and how we find yourself where you are today.
Okay. Um thank you. So, the one thing I was very clear about when I was growing up, I think from like maybe standard three or something, is that I was going to be some sort of creative.
Okay.
At the time, I thought I was going to be like a Michelangelo or something.
A painter or something.
The full de lulu.
Yes.
You know, uh but I knew very young that I was going to be an artist. I just I knew it in my bones, you know? And so, everything that I did from that point onwards was basically in that direction. You know, much to the consternation of sometimes my parents, because I have the personality where if

1:49
[laughter]
if I don't like something, I won't do it.
Mhm. Mhm.
So, [clears throat] I kind of ignored everything else and focused on that. So, grew up in a middle-class family, um [snorts] went to a public school. I was in Hospital Hill Primary, H H H S. Um and was very lucky that I found teachers who are very open to allowing me to express myself creatively. In primary school, in high school, and an amazing art teacher in high school, and I even ended up doing fine art at the university. I went to K U. I did fine art. I did a degree. I have a degree in fine art from K U. From K U. Um and I think around then is when it occurred to me that perhaps um Kenya is not ready for a Michelangelo. Also, I did not have the requisite skill to be, you know, quite a Michelangelo. So, I had to temper down my ideas of being the next Michelangelo in Kenya and become a graphic designer.

3:04
Okay.
Yeah, I kind of fell into that, actually. I was I was looking for work and I worked for I think straight after university I went and worked for a furniture design company.
Okay.
I thought I was going there to help design furniture, but it ended up I was the tea girl.
Okay.
Um which I didn't love, so I didn't stay too long. And then I was I went and worked for a graphic design company. And the first thing they asked me was, "You know how to use graphic design software?" And I said, "Yes." With absolute confidence, not knowing what that was. Because when I was in campus, graphic design was done by hand.
Yes.
We designed posters on by hand. You You we learned about color separations. We did all of that by hand. I think the computer at the time was in the chairman's office or something.

3:57
Yes.
So, I then had to go through a very steep learning curve. Um, learning how to use like CorelDraw.
Before you do.
QuarkXPress, PageMaker. All of this is before YouTube. There were no books or anything, so you kind of have to muddle through it yourself. Luckily for me, my employer knew even less than me, so you know, I still ended up looking like the expert, but I learned very quickly. And I was also very fortunate that after that job, I went and worked for a repro house. Where I learned everything I know.
What is a repro house for the layman?
Oh, so a repro house is way back when, you know, before we got into the 20th century, though we're in the 21st century. Yeah. Um, when you were doing print, you needed to do what we call color separations. So, we had companies that were designed that were created specifically for preparing artworks for print.

5:05
Okay.
So, those are the guys who create the the films. So, when you're printing, it's a four-color process if you're doing offset printing. There's cyan, magenta, yellow, and black. So, you have to like if you have a full-color artwork, then it means you have to separate all those colors onto film.
Yes.
And those films are the ones that are used now to create plates that will be used for print.
layer those plates in the printing one on top of the other, yeah.
So, the paper will go through the four-color process.
Yes.
So, I worked there, and my boss was an amazing guy who's very he was very pro-learning. So, he taught me everything I knew about graphic and especially designing for production.

5:50
Mhm.
It's a huge difference.
Yes.
Yeah, cuz you have to think about your color profiles, you have to think about, you know, how your what your output is going to be at the end of it. So, I worked there for a while. And then I don't even think I stayed a year there. Maybe a year. I was then um I was I was I was poached by one of our clients.
Yes.
Who had a graphic design company. He was leaving the country and he was looking for someone to run his business.
Okay.
So, again, I said yes. It seems to be a habit of saying yes to things that I do not know whether I can do that.
Mhm.
Um I said yes. Never having run a business in my life. And got into this established business. Um run it for a little while. Got into some problems with you know, it was it was almost like a family type business. So, it became very apparent that I was not going to stay there very long.

6:53
Mhm.
And then I jumped ship and went and started All and Sundry Limited.
Okay.
Yeah.
Before we get into All and Sundry Limited, you've touched on something in your education that I just want us to speak about briefly because I think it's I think we we we are not very good at celebrating what we're really good at. And you've talked about the arts program at Ke- Kenyatta University.
Mhm.
Yeah. And um I was I'm also raised in a middle-class family. My primary school I was in Consolata. And I remember we got this art teacher. And he was a fresh graduate out of Kenyatta University.
Mhm.
And he's now a famed sculptor, Kyoko Mwikya.
Oh, nice.
And Kyoko was was my favorite art teacher in in primary school. And I remember reflecting as we grew older. Um cuz he was an art teacher, but he also introduced us to rugby as a sport cuz he used to play for black blood in Kenyatta University. But I kept on reflecting, what is this art program at Kenyatta? And over the years, just out of curiosity, I've studied and Kenyatta University has a phenomenal art program and has had for a very long time.

8:14 And I don't think it's something that many Kenyans know, you know? And I recently discovered that people are coming from all over Africa even West Africa to study in their in art-related courses, be it fine art, be it master's programs around art, and they're coming to study at Kenyatta University. So maybe tell us a bit about that your your experience with the program at Kenyatta University and how it formed your fine art training at Kenyatta University formed your one curated your love for the arts and later on formed whatever journey you ended up doing in
Okay. So even before I talk about Kenyatta University, I'll probably talk about like high school. When I went to I was in Kenya High School. And I I've always been a very very reserved, very quiet person. And I tended to disappear into the background a lot of the times. And when I went to K when I went to Kenya High I immediately gravitated towards the art department. And I found this phenomenal art teacher Mr. Okanga, we used to call him

9:32 Kangiman. Um he's still in my life. I'm so happy to say that.
Yeah.
Um he allowed me the space to actually be who I needed to be without changing anything about myself.
Mhm.
[clears throat]
Yeah. He he literally let me bloom in my art uh journey. And I think that's where I learned I I got the confidence to go to say, "You know what? I really want to do this for the rest of my life."
Okay.
You know, this is definitely the thing that I want to do. So, when I And you know So, I'm a firstborn. Went like you probably noticed to very good schools, you know.
Um I was in a national school. I'm a firstborn. There are certain expectations of a firstborn.
Mhm.
And this firstborn is saying she wants to go and paint.

10:32
Mhm. Do art.
And draw and do art and things like that. It There was some problems that caused, you know.
So, but I was so clear. I was so clear that this is the thing that I wanted to do. You know, so when I finished um high school and by the way, we me and a friend of mine called Lucy were actually the best in fine art in that year.
Okay.
During the final exams in the country.
Mhm.
And then of course, I was called to KU.
Mhm.
I didn't want to go to KU initially.
Yes.
I actually wanted to go to Nairobi University. I wanted to do the the design course at Nairobi University cuz I thought about it and I was like, "You know what? Maybe I should do design and and then, you know, kind of weave my art into it." But I missed Nairobi University by I think a mark or something.

11:31
Okay.
And so, then I ended up in KU. When I got into KU, I was feeling a little
dejected.
Yes, some sort of way about it.
Mhm.
You know, and then we got into the program and I discovered that it was probably actually the best place for me.
Mhm.
Because one, it helped me really learn a lot of uh skills across the board. I did metal work, I did wood work, I did fabric design, I did graphic design. I did drawing, I did painting. You know, I think the only thing I didn't do in KU was maybe sculpture.
Okay.
You know? Um so, my my major was in was in graphic design, I think, and a minor in fabric design. You know? And then everything else happened.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.

12:25
You There's certain units you do. I think what KU did for me is that it really expanded my mind.
Wow.
Yeah. It really, really expanded my mind. I did a BA. Um I loved that we didn't have to do too many academic subjects. Because I also had it and this is a a thing, I don't know whether it's with artists or with me or what, but I had a thing that not good at anything else, so I'll keep to the art.
Okay.
You know? So, I think we did like maybe philosophy and literature, which I loved uh the first couple of years and then after that it was just pure art. So, we did art history, a lot of um and a lot of practical stuff. So, it really it it I think it made me a better entrepreneur because it showed me a journey that was not your regular journey.

13:18
It's not a true journey.
So, that's what KU did for me.
Okay.
Yeah.
Excellent. So, now let's get to All and Sundry. You have decided. So, what is All and Sundry born as?
So, All and Sundry actually was born as All and Sundry Designs.
Okay.
The name was My brother is actually the one who was registering for me the name, and I'd been thinking about it for so long. And one day he called me and just told me, "Listen, I'm on my way to the registrars, and I need a name now. Give me a name."
Mhm.
So, I was like I was like, "All and Sundry? You know, sounds like it can cover everything." So, you know, that's literally how the name was born.
Okay. [laughter]
So, um it was started It started off as a as a sole proprietorship. Yeah. I literally I remember the day I decided I was going to start my own place. I walked down the street from where I was working. Remember I told you I was working at this uh graphic design place.

14:14
And you know, I'd been invited to leave, so now I need to find my plan B. I walked down the street on Kimathi Street, found at the corner of was Lonrho House,
Mhm.
and there was a to let sign.
Mhm.
So, I went upstairs. They had this beautiful spiral staircase,
Yes.
which for me was an instant sell. I was like, "Yes, this is the place." Found this beautiful quirky little corner office. And I was like, "Yep, this is it. This is it." So, I went to the I think the letting agent at the time was Knight Frank. And their offices were on Kijabe Street. So, I walked to Kijabe Street
Mhm.
with my I remember I was told that the the deposit was like 5,000 shillings. My first check It was literally my first check. I'd never written a check before in my life.

15:05
Mhm.
So, I had my check for 5,000 shillings for my deposit. And I go there, and this guy tells me, "I'm sorry, but there are like 10 people
want that space."
who have queued up for that space. You know, and I didn't know this at the time, but this is literally how I learned how to be completely unreasonable about what you would want. I was like, "You don't understand. That space is mine." He was like, "There are 10 people ahead of you. Check. Come in a few days and see whether they're still cuz no one has paid yet."
Mhm.
Every day I was there with my 5,000 bob check. And people kept falling off until I was number one.
Wow.
I paid, got the space. So, I was like, "Great. Now I need to do something about it." And I knew it was going to be a nice, happy place. So, we painted the walls yellow on this cushion that is there.

16:00
Yeah.
And a nice black trim. Got my I think my cousin is the one who was helping me do this. And got um a crazy fundi I knew called Odhiambo to do for me work spaces. Remember, I'm on a budget. So, we created our work spaces like along the edge so that I don't have, you know, we can maximize space as much as possible. I left Odhiambo for probably half a day and came and found that he had made them way too high. But we can't undo them now cuz they're done. So, then I had to go and buy like architectural seats. You know, so
High seats.
Yes, the high seats. Already, the office was a very It was a very interesting space. And we started just like that. We just started like that. I came I brought a chair from home. I took one of the dining room chairs. And which didn't work because, remember, the seats are too high. So, for a while I was actually standing until we bought the seats, the the architectural the high seats. And then I had um I had a computer, I think.

17:10 And uh then I bought a scanner.
And you started doing what?
We started working. But I was lucky because remember the other the previous place?
Yes.
I had a personal relationship with a lot of the clients.
Okay.
Yeah. So, when I left, they were like, "Yep, we're coming with you."
Okay.
You know? So, I already had
their graphic design.
Yes, to do their graphic design work. So, I was doing things like book cover designs, posters, flyers, logos, you know? I was just doing basic graphic design work.
Okay.
And then, a little while afterwards, they decided to close the graphic design part of their business. And so, the guy who used to work for me there came and joined us.

17:50
Okay.
Yeah, he came and joined me.
Mhm.
Yeah, so now we are two of us. Yeah, we're running around. It was like the wildest time, because I think at the time, this was 2003. My my second born was he was 2 years old. So, I have small babies. I think we lived in Nairobi estate in Makadara at the time.
Mhm.
Um I'm taking matatus to town. You know? Um I'm learning about things like licenses, and things like that.
business permit and things like, yeah.
You know, that time it was not I don't even think it was a single business permit. It was just a business permit that you needed to get from city council.
Yes.
It was wild. It It It when I think back on it, it feels like going down, you know, like rapids.

18:44
How old are you at this time?
I'm 28.
Wow.
I'm 28.
Mhm.
I was just telling you earlier how I was admiring people who start businesses early. To someone and they said, "But, you started when you are quite young, no?"
Young, yeah.
I was like, "Wait, I was very young. I was very young."
Okay.
I didn't know about I fell into entrepreneurship.
Mhm.
I don't think
It was not a plan.
It was not the plan. The plan was that I was supposed to be Michelangelo. You know, selling
Painting, painting, culture, something like
An insane amount of money so that I can paint every once in a while, just live comfortably off my wealth. You know? Um, that didn't quite pan out. So, here I am in in the heart of Nairobi on in the middle of the CBD you know, battling with city council guys, learning about, you know, what it takes to run a business in Nairobi. But, I think also because I'm a person of faith that my faith really helped because sometimes I'd be like, "Okay, God, we're

19:55 going to need rent um tomorrow." You know? So
Yeah.
Make it happen. And I kid you not, someone then that evening would call and say, "By the way, I needed this done. I'd forgotten about it. Can I send you and it would always be slightly above what I needed. Always. In fact, when I think back to those days, I think about them with nostalgia because I feel like my faith then was a lot stronger than it is right now, you know? Yeah.
Life has happened.
Yeah, life has happened, you know?
Okay. So, those are the early days of All and Sundry.
Yeah.
But, you you you work in a space, you have walked us through, you started in this space when it was all physical and color separation and all that. Then, of course, the computer comes in and you start learning the softwares and all that. But, maybe walk us through the journey of All and Sundry then, since then, you know? What did you evolve? How did you pivot? Because I'm sure um different evolutions all the way to

21:03 today when you're talking about AI which is really um come into that space. So, how does All and Sundry as a business
evolve
evolve through that over time?
Okay. So, you know, like I said, All and Sundry started as we were doing basic group design work, graphic design work. You need a flyer, you need a poster, you need a you know, that kind of thing. The only thing I think that I was really good at was maintaining relationships.
Okay.
So, a lot of the companies that we actually started with then, some of them still in my life now.
Okay.
You know, um we'd start off with small things and we'd grow into other things.
Yeah.
Yeah. Uh So, it was a sole proprietorship up until I think 2008 when I decided, "Hey, I need to put in some

21:53
structure."
structure and professionalism.
Mhm.
Yeah. Note, by the way, to anyone who's starting a business, please start with the structures first.
Mhm.
Very important.
Yeah.
Cuz putting in structure afterwards is very difficult.
Yeah.
It's very hard.
Yeah.
So, we did that. I I made it into now a limited liability company. By then, my sister is also working with us. Um my sister, she came in as a partner. Um amazing graphic designer, also. And by then, I think I'm starting to think that I think I want more. You know, the questions that I started asking
Yes.
even as I'm doing graphic design work. I I I I no I was no longer just designing logos just for the sake of designing logos.

22:39
Yes.
I'm like, "So, what are we building here? What What do you want to do with this? Where do you want it to go?" You know, I got into branding without knowing that I was getting into branding.
Okay.
You know, because then now what I was really doing was building brands. Yeah. Um the the logo design and the and the visuals are a very small part of branding.
Agreed.
So, you're asking the questions that and then I realized there was actually a kind of a niche, especially for SMEs. A lot of them uh started the way I did, you know, I need to start a biashara.
Mhm.
I, you know, I need a logo.
Yes.
But you're not really thinking through who you're talking to or what you want to do with it. So, then I was helping a lot of my clients think through that, you know? So, that's I think that was the evolution of All in Sundry. While that is happening

23:30
Mhm.
also, because remember I'm an artist.
Yes.
Um I have this thing for paper. I love paper and all things paper.
Yes.
So, we started doing uh invitations.
Okay.
Um we started off first with like friends and stuff like that. I think like in 2006 or 2005. And before I knew it was actually a big part of our business. Very big part of our business that we became known as the guys, the wedding stationery guys.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Mhm.
So, on one hand, and this is something I've always struggled with, because the things that we do are so vastly different. On one hand, we are the wedding stationery people. Doing amazing bespoke stationery. And then on the other hand, we are also the branding people.

24:19
Mhm.
You know, creating brands for SMEs and and things like that. And so, these two kind of grew hand in hand. Yeah. Um got into the space of I mean, like I told you I had clients who we'd worked with for so long that they're like, "Listen, we have this exhibition. You know our brand better than anyone else, so you do everything."
Design our set.
Design our set, do all of that, deal with all those guys. So, it became like a one-stop shop for all of those things.
Okay.
You know?
Okay.
So, that went on for a while. Meanwhile, we are trying to put in structure. I'm trying to learn how to not run the place like a kiosk. You know, which I did for
Let's speak about that putting in structure.

25:08
Yeah.
Because you quite eloquently advise young entrepreneurs that they should start with structure.
Yeah.
Why? What did you see? What did you experience? What pain did you go through in putting in that structure that made you say, "If you are to do this, learn from my mistake and start with structure."
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, when I started, knew nothing about business, knew nothing about money, knew nothing. In fact, I remember one of my first jobs was with a huge corporate who we did for them we did for them some identity
Mhm.
and then we did branded merchandise.
Mhm.
Now, I'm a polite Christian Kenyan girl. I don't know how to ask for money.
Yes.
You know, my assumption is that you're going to pay me in good faith.

25:57
Yes. Yes. Yes.
that was one of the hardest lessons to learn as an entrepreneur.
Uh-huh. [laughter]
That good faith sometimes is not enough.
Yes.
You know, you need to have these conversations up front. And you need to be paid up front.
When are you paying me and yeah, how much are you giving me up front? Uh-huh.
Exactly. Wait, those guys I think we were 3 years old at the time.
Yes.
Didn't pay. You know, said the stories of oh, you know, we need to do the paperwork. Oh, so you who has gone to where
done.
Job is done and delivered. I owe my suppliers a lot of money, you know? There's rent coming up, there's salaries, all of that stuff. I've not been paid.
Yeah.

26:36
You know, I was supposed to be the job that was my breakthrough job.
Mhm.
That job taught me a lot in terms of character development.
Yes.
You know, cuz I I had to now go and camp at their office. I'm like, "What's the problem?" And you know, because I'm a small business there's a there's a kind of disdain for small businesses.
Yeah. Yeah.
Um I'm sorry to say but at the time a lot of corporates would be like we'll pay you when we get to it, you know.
Don't be sorry. I think I actually think it's something that as Kenyans and maybe Africans
Yeah.
we need to discuss more openly. And it really disturbs me because I could tell you the same story from a restaurant perspective as a small restaurant owner.

27:19
Yeah.
There's a culture of bullying.
Yes. It's actually
from corporate Kenya.
Yes.
And I think it it emanates from an very extractive culture.
Mhm.
We take, take, take, take, take and you should almost be grateful and bow down. Kiss the ring because this big corporate has given you work.
has deigned to give you work.
Has And you know and and and I challenge a lot of big organizations from that perspective, you know. Banks with you know And the other day I was there's a small catering business I whose board I sit on.
Mhm.
And a massive Kenyan bank is giving them payment terms for an a high-end function that just don't make sense.
Yeah.
When when when when these people are going to cater And for you over multiple days hit you with a bill of like 6 7 million shillings. And then your terms are 90 days. Who are they buying meat and mbogas from and drinks on a

28:20
They credit
cycle. And then you you on top of that you say our policy is no deposit, full payment on on on on completion. 90 days after we receive your invoice. And that's that's absurd, you know. And it's that bullying culture. So I don't think you have anything to apologize for.
Yeah. So one of the things that actually I learned was the audacity of you know the way corporates will tell you our policy is 90 days and I'm like I'm sorry that's not going to work for me. My policy our policy, even if it was just me, our policy is cash up front.
Yeah.
You know, or 50% deposit. You know, anyway, so when those guys nearly ruined my life um I was also my accounts were I had one account for the business and for myself.

29:10
Yes, it was the same thing.
Yeah, so I need to buy milk for the house, it's coming from there. Transport, nanny, bogas, paper, printing, everything was coming from there. It was it was as in I knew kiosks that were run better.
So who taught you or who helped you in this structuring journey?
One, there was that feeling inside myself that this is not how it's supposed to happen.
Mhm.
And then I read an amazing book which I always recommend to people who are starting business is called The E-Myth.
Yes.
Yeah, by Michael Gerber.
Yes.
I read that book and I think I cried at the beginning because I was like, this book is talking to someone like me. You know, the entrepreneurial myth.

29:55
Yeah.
About how you feel like you can do this yourself you know, you really need to define who you are and what you are to the business. And so then I called in a company called Upo, Upo Limited and they came in and oh, working with them was such a joy because it was a very difficult process. You know, you end up having conversations with yourself that you've never had before in your life. You know, as in who am I to this business? You know, am I an entrepreneur or am I running a high stakes hobby enterprise?
Yes.
You know?
Yes.
Um and so we did all of that work. We had to come up with structures, you know, like build the house. You fill in the rooms later.
Mhm.
You know, operations, marketing, you know, finance, especially finance. You know, putting all those structures and almost like automate them so that it frees me now to do the other stuff that I wanted to do.

30:57
Nice.
Yeah. So, we did that and we did that successfully. Took, I think, 2 years to put it all together.
Yes.
Um and we ran for a bit and then Was it 2017? Was it 2017 when we had elections?
Which which ones?
The ones the the ones where we ended up having two elections in a year.
2017, yeah.
It was 2017. So, by then business had kind of started It was starting to get a little shaky.
Yes.
And you know in this country election year means that everything our businesses run on a 5-year cycle.
Very true.
You know, it's election year pack up just turn down everything and wait for the next government, you know? And so 2017 was particularly hard for our business because I think a lot of companies that cuz we were doing by then we were doing quite a bit of we were in the event space. You know, doing a lot of stuff in the event space.

32:00
Yeah.
And a lot of those had now started rolling back their budgets.
Okay.
Yeah. So, now we're at the place where I'm feeling like we are kind of working almost hand to mouth, you know?
So, does your branding journey take you into almost an agency setup? Do you become agency-like?
Yes and no. Because I was the guy that agencies worked with.
Mhm.
I was a production guy for agencies.
Okay. Okay. Okay.
Yeah. That's that's the space where I found myself. So, on one hand for some clients I'm agency-like, but for agencies I am their production partner. Yeah. So then 20 So 2017 happens and you know, business is really bad and we are now struggling. I think I was also by that time I was you know,

32:52
[sighs]
I have four small children by then.
Mhm.
You know, I have four children, running a home, running I was also trying to run another business unsuccessfully. Um a craft business.
Mhm.
We started it with uh my sister and and someone else. But it didn't go very well. So, you know, there all these things. I'm feeling like I'm not I've spread myself too thin.
Mhm.
So, I'm not paying attention. I I think there was an opportunity there to pivot that I had not I did not take.
Mhm.
So, we were kind of like sitting ducks waiting for whatever was going to happen to happen.
Yeah.
So, 2017 comes and goes. 2018 we're kind of just, you know, plodding along. 2019 we're That We're starting to see the light, you know? And then 2020 happened. I'll never forget February 2020.

33:47
Shut down. The great shutdown.
Even before the shutdown, the announcement.
The announcement and by that time my wedding stationery business was very big.
Mhm.
Yeah. The announcement happened and by the end of that week we were at zero.
No weddings.
No weddings. Cancelled as in for jobs that we've done where we expecting now people are coming to collect their jobs and pay the balances.
There's no wedding.
Done.
Wow.
You know?
Wow.
But I think by then I had gone through so much uh suffering
and chaos.
and chaos. I was kind of used to it. So, by this time I was very quick to do my pivot. You know, I sat down, I did the math and I was like, "This is not going to This We're not going to be able to make it as is." You know, I think we we plotted on for maybe a month or two, but during that time I wrote to my landlord and I was like,

34:44
We're out.
"We're out. We're not going to be able to do this." My My lease was coming up for renewal the next year in 2021. Yeah. Uh and I asked them, "Please release me from the lease early." And I think because of the general confusion, they were also they just said, "Okay." You know, I already owed them quite a bit of money in rent. And then I also told them, "I don't think I'm going to be able to pay you this money. So, please feel free to auction me." You know, which is I don't think a request they've ever received from anyone.
Mhm.
You know, most of times you have to go and force people to auction them. Uh but I was very clear. I was like, "I'm not going to be able to pay this. It's not going to work. So, auction." Of course, I'd already taken out my like my laptops and things like that. So, you know, um and so we did that, and we shut down the office after 18 years.

35:37
Wow.
You know, and I remember going home and thinking, "I am such a failure."
Yeah.
You know, "I have failed amazingly." Cuz how do you close down a
Spectacularly and visibly.
Yes, visibly.
Yeah.
But the only thing that was giving me um confi- not confidence, but consolation was I was failing together with a lot of people.
Yes.
Literally the whole country. Actually, the whole world.
Mhm.
You know, because everyone was in a space where they did not know what was going on. So, I remember for me the hardest conversations to have was actually with my people because telling them, you know, by that time I had uh three other employees.
Yes.
And telling them, "It looks like this is a wrap." You know, "I'm going to need to send you home." Na na na. Before I think 2 months before that we were doing this thing where when money comes in, we split it.

36:30
Mhm.
You know, amongst ourselves.
Mhm.
You know, but it was not going to be
sustainable.
sustainable. So, send them home and went home and just sat and thought. And it didn't help. I remember having a conversation with my mom. She thought and you know, she was she was being she was being she was being supportive. And she told me, "Nucani, even if you've gone home with nothing, you know, God is still there, and you know,
[laughter]
God bless mothers.
I know. You know, and she was just being she was just being supportive.
Yeah.
But me, I was like, "18 years and I'm going home with nothing.
Mhm.
You know, how's that going to work?"
Yeah.
You know, so went home. For me, it was also a huge pivot because then I started painting again.

37:27
Okay.
I hadn't been painting all those years. I was too busy. I need I need calm in my head to paint.
Mhm.
Between small children and business and employees and landlords and things like that, I had no time to paint. I used to do art here and there, but nothing major. So, I started painting. And I painted voraciously for it was 2 years, I think.
Mhm.
Or a year or so. Then I started getting a few jobs coming in. So, at this time I'm thinking, "I'm going to kill this thing. I'm going to kill all and sundry.
Mhm.
You know, let it rest and start something else. You know, in the art space. Maybe this is the time for me to become now the Michelangelo that I wanted to become."

38:15
Yes.
Then I start getting one or two jobs here and there. And I'm working from home. In for me the greatest insight was, "Oh my gosh, I didn't actually need an office
Mhm.
to do the stuff that I was doing."
Okay.
You know? And so, all of Land Sandra just basically shrunk to me again. And then I started now doing things just slowly. But I also now incorporated my creative self into it.
Okay.
So, even when I'm doing stationary, I'm now looking at doing I did a couple of jobs very exciting where I get to do painting. You know, painted stationary for people.
job, yeah.
Within the job.
Okay.
You know? So, what I did, I I decided, "Okay, for me like the wedding stationary, also I'm kind of old nowadays. I think I'm jaded. I I started really struggling with like new, you know, doing massive jobs.

39:14
Yes.
So, now I'm I I do more smaller jobs. Um but very very
They're a niche operator.
I am a niche operator.
Mhm.
Yes, I have my niche for that. Yeah. Also, I then sat down and thought about the years of experience that I've had in in my design business. And it's something that I was already doing for people. You know, we'll come in and sit down and ask you questions about So, you wanted to start this, let's say it's a cake business. Yeah? Where do you want it to go? Why do you Why are you doing it? What do you want people to feel?
Mhm.
You know, and basically create those brands.
Okay.
Yeah? So, currently I have re- re- reinvented myself
Yes.
as a what you'd call a fractional creative director.

40:06
But interestingly, uh I don't think you know this because I haven't told you, but that um post that you put on LinkedIn is what uh uh got me to ask you to come on the podcast because I found out to be quite unique.
Yeah.
And I was like when and then okay, went down a rabbit hole because I saw fractional creative director and I was like okay, this is interesting and I have a friend who's currently getting into fractional CFO.
Yes.
I have another friend who's doing fractional CEO and so on. And so I said I started reading and I said this is an interesting business.
Yeah.
So maybe tell us about this fractional creative it's it's fractional creative direction, right?
Yes.

40:51
So tell us about
creative. So here's the thing. You know now we are in a space where businesses are have literally shrunk in terms of their physicality.
Yes.
Yeah, but you're still doing a very large volume of work.
Mhm.
Now days you don't need an office space.
Mhm.
You don't need to have employees. So like for me for All and Sundry that's actually what So after after after COVID yeah, I just never went back into that space of I have
a physical office.
a physical office or full-time employees.
Okay.
But what that allowed me was the freedom of being able to hire who I needed to hire on a job-by-job or a case-by-case basis.
Interesting. So let's just contextualize that for the audience. So All and Sundry still operates.

41:44
Yes.
That means you're still doing your your your bookkeeping, your accounting, your statutory submissions, but you just don't have staff.
I don't have staff.
do you you give out roles and you're able to curate both your earnings and your and your expenses based on the job that you have. Is that a fair assessment?
Exactly.
Yeah.
Exactly. I also do not have I have I have a bookkeeper who comes in once in a while.
Mhm.
Yeah, like um once a month.
books.
To keep the books. Yeah, I have
[snorts]
uh my printer partner who we work with. In fact, I keep telling him he's like part of All and Sundry, you know, cuz we'll discuss the inner workings of something with him. If I'm doing an illustrative job, I'm hiring an illustrator.

42:34
Okay.
Yeah. If I need If let's say I'm working with a company that requires a digital marketing expert,
Mhm.
I'll pull in someone to come in and we do it together. So, the fractional space is something that has been expanding very quickly, especially after COVID.
Yes.
Yeah, because we then realized why would you be paying for someone to sit there? And here's the thing, like now for instance, let's say I had a full-time graphic designer working under me. Yeah? So, I pay them once a month, right? But that graphic designer, remember, has their area of specialization. Which means if I if I need them to do something else, I'm not necessarily getting the best. Yeah? Now, if I can hire someone to do

43:26 who come in as a graphic designer for a particular job,
Mhm.
it means then I'm getting the best.
Yes.
Okay, the best that my money can buy.
Agreed.
You know, um so so the the the fractional space has been in existence for a while. It's just now being defined.
Okay.
Yeah? So, for me also, I sat down and thought, what can I bring to this market?
Mhm.
You know, and what it is is I've discovered um and this is something that even when I was still at when we were still in town, that I'd noticed. In fact, a lot of the times we'd get a lot of students coming in even from ADMI
Yes.
for internship, that there was a huge gap between being a good graphic designer and being a good graphic designer for production.

44:13
Okay.
Yeah. And also, a lot of the times you find a good graphic designer is not necessarily someone who's able to do the the deep thinking, the strategic thinking that you need to do. Yeah. And that's the space that I'm very good at.
Okay.
Yeah. So, why not then offer my services to you in a space where I'm like, okay, so you have an in-house designer, you have a design team or something like that. Let's say you're in manufacturing or something like that. You've got this team that works and you tell them, "Listen, we need to create a new packaging for this tea product that we are bringing up."
Mhm.
But you always feel like there's a disconnect, you know? The design is very good, but it's not connecting. It's because of the certain questions that needed to have been asked that were not asked that were not even answered, you know? That's what your fractional is. So, that's what So, I come in and I'm like, so I know what the vision holder wants and I know how to speak to these this design team in a way to make it

45:15 happen. And because I've been through the entire value chain,
Yes.
I'm able to tell you where the hiccups will be. I'm able to tell you what to look out for.
Okay.
And I'm able to tell you, okay, this is what it needs to look like so that when it sits on the shelf
And how how has that journey been? So, since you since it's it's it's starting, yes, but you must have a client to to So, what are you seeing? What are your insights now that you're in it? And I I as you describe it and even as I reflect on the various people, entrepreneurs who've been uh on the on this podcast, I can already see where you plug into them because some of them are small. You know, they cannot afford you maybe as a full-time a creative director.

46:02
Exactly.
can afford you for two days in a month.
Exactly.
can come in and you can come one day and then come after a week and another day to issue instructions and so on and actually stitch together because I think this journey of Africans building African brands
Mhm.
needs such a high level of can I call it localization and contextualization that we build within the realities of where we are.
Yeah.
And I think you are contributing to that. So what have your insights been in this early stage of going in that fractional direction?
So I think for me so it's you know I'm still in the So I'm still in the I'm still at the very beginning of it.
Agreed.
Where I'm currently still having conversations.

46:47
Mhm.
Yeah. I'm having exciting conversations but I'm still having conversations. One of the things that I've realized is that I really needed to sit down. So when I came up with this and I put it out there there was a way that I thought it was going to run. You know. But after speaking to a number of clients, possible clients, I've seen that I need to kind of there are few refinements that I need to do. One, I need to be very clear about the niche that I want to get into. Yeah. And it's been a bit of a struggle because my passion is actually SMEs.
Yes.
Yeah. Now SMEs
can't afford
typically don't have a lot of money.
They can't afford
I find myself in a Yeah. I find myself in a catch-22 situation.

47:35
Yeah.
You know.
Yeah.
Do I follow my passion or do I follow the money? You know. And I think I'm kind of figuring out how I can have a nice happy uh divide between the two. You know. Have my big time guys pay for my small time guys, you know. Yeah, because what I really really want to see is I want to see SMEs grow and reach a point where you're still a small business, but you have such a global outlook. You know, but it's still so uniquely African.
Yeah.
You know, it's built for Africa. It's built in Africa, but it stands on a global stage.
And I love that we're having these conversations now because I think we can also highlight things that many Kenyans don't know, but are realities. In essence, what you're doing is no different from how large multinationals operate.

48:29
Mhm.
Uh Safaricom is now the largest company in Eastern and Central Africa, yeah? And many people may not know this, but Safaricom didn't start with an in-house legal department.
Mhm.
Um they started by outsourcing that service to uh uh until it reached a stage where it says, "Okay, we have now it's year three, year four, and we need we now build an in-house legal department." Safaricom didn't start with an in-house um events marketing component of that. It was an outsourced service to a PR and communications firm.
Mhm.
And then they reached a certain stage where it's year three, four, and they're like, "Okay, now this is now big enough internally." So, what you're doing for SMEs and and I'd encourage cuz we we Kenya is a unique market in the sense that we do have the intellect. Yeah? But sometimes that intellect does not appreciate how to package itself

49:25
Yes.
with relevance to the market and meet at the stage where the businesses need what they need. Because like I said, as you're speaking, I'm thinking about historical podcast guests. I'm like, "These guys need your service."
So, you'll give me a list.
Yeah, I will I will I will I will connect [laughter] you. I will connect you to them. Um so, where are where let let let's maybe um as you wind up, let's maybe put our dreaming caps on and um Uh I like the way you've pivoted and I like that you're selling. What you're selling is actually devoid of You have de-risked what you're selling significantly and I don't know if you can recognize that because you're now saying, "I'm selling what I do."

50:12 Yeah? So, what does that look like in the future for you based on the conversations that you're having now?
Wow. Okay. So, you know we've just touched on like all and sundry and this thing that I'm doing. That question I find it difficult to answer without telling you about everything else I'm doing.
do.
So, one of my I feel like my mission in life or why I was put here
Mhm.
is one I'm meant to show people the beauty of God's creation
Mhm.
through my work.
Mhm.
Yeah? Two, I'm meant to show people their creative potential
Mhm.
through their interaction with me.
Okay.
Yeah? And so, if when you ask me where do I see this going? I see myself having had a hand in building some amazing Kenyan brands.

51:12
Absolutely.
Yeah? Where I was able to help them figure out what they needed to figure out in terms of their brand and how to place it on a global stage. Remember the world has shrunk so much. We We now we're kind of almost borderless.
Mhm.
Yeah? But that doesn't mean that So, your your competitor is not necessarily the guy doing what you're doing here.
Yes.
Your competitor is a guy in India or a guy in in in in in Sweden.
True.
How are you competing with him? And what makes you uniquely you?
Great.
So, I'm hoping that you know, we all think about yourself as when you think about your story, think about your eulogy. I mean, imagine that at my death there will be probably need a stadium or something because of all these people who come in and say, "Do you know what she did for our company?" You know, that kind of thing. High end high team because I'm I'm hoping that I'm going to build a team of people who can do what I'm going to do

52:19 for them. Yeah?
It's a fabulous vision.
Yeah. So, So, that's that's all in sundry.
Okay.
For dreaming creatively, I teach people to do the watercolors that I do cuz I feel like a lot of people have not had a chance to actually get in touch with their creative selves.
Mhm.
You know, um a lot of people are not as stubborn as I was, so you end up your a sad banker. But, each one of us has a creator in them. You know, so I teach people through watercolors how to get in touch with that creative person. Yeah? I teach children um in the childhood cancer space. I work in the childhood cancer space. And we teach them how to dream again.
Yes.
You know, and how to forget what they're going through um cuz their their journey is the hardest journey that you could ever take.

53:15
Mhm.
You know, so I feel like everything that I do is basically ensconced in the idea that I'm kind of like a co-creator.
Mhm.
And I help people figure out
Excellent.
their creative selves and how to present themselves and their brands in a way that stands out.
Excellent.
Yeah.
Wow, interesting. You talked about um um helping people paint, you know, teach people how to paint because they're coming out and I have some three friends who are all incidentally two of them are in finance and one is was in IT and all of them are I call them post 50 DJs.
Yeah.
[laughter]
And they're discovering this because at that time when they were growing up, that side of them was bottled up. But what I like about what I like about the Kenya that we now live in today is that you don't have to be one thing and you can explore various sides of yourselves. Can be a high ranking finance person and at the same time a really good DJ and both worlds are real and both worlds are relevant.

54:33
Exactly.
And and I love that that has been in the Kenya of today that is acceptable and long long may it last.
Yeah.
So Kanya, I'll give you a chance to now just tell the audience where can they find you? Businesses that want to interact with All and Sundry with a fractional creative direction that you you now offer as a service plus all the other things that All and Sundry does. What are your handles? Where can you be found so that anyone who's interested can reach out to you?
Okay. So I am on the major social media you know. Uh you can find me on my my personal social media handles are Kanya Ohawa on IG, on Facebook, on Twitter. I think Twitter it's K Ohawa.
Okay.
Um All and Sundry Limited also exists. Um you can you can you can reach out on www.allandsundry ltd.com.

55:31
Okay.
Uh you can also give me a call on 0726-864-222. Um let's sit down and have a conversation. A lot of people don't sometimes you know you have a pain point but you're not quite able to describe it. A gift I have is being able to also tell people to kind of help people figure out the unspoken.
Excellent.
You know the things that you don't know because sometimes you'll say this is your problem but that's not your real problem.
Okay.
You know sometimes your problem is something deeper. And especially for entrepreneurs man this is a long lonely journey. So if you can get someone who can help you kind of articulate some of these things and especially that make your brand look and feel better and speak to the people it needs to speak to so that you can make a lot of money why not?

56:25
Excellent.
Yeah.
Wow what a fabulous episode. Ladies and gentlemen that was episode 59 of the African Boo Podcast featuring Kanye of All and Sundry Limited. A fabulous conversation around all things entrepreneurship journey in a creative space and as she continues to unlock value from the gifts and talents she's been given we wish her all the very best. I look forward to seeing you on our 60th episode coming up next and thank you very much for joining us.