Maurice Otieno — transcript

He Built Africa's Biggest Media Incubator From 3 People Then He Handed It Over | Maurice Otieno Ep28

This transcript is generated automatically by YouTube and has not been checked by a person. It misspells names and mishears words, particularly around Kenyan English and company names, so read it as a guide to the conversation rather than a quotable record. Each timestamp opens the video at that moment.

0:01 [Music] Greetings, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to episode 28 of the African Do podcast. Today, I'm very privileged to have Moraurice Otenu. Moraurice, welcome to the African Do podcast.
Thank you. Thank you so much. Moraurice is an entrepreneur and one of the uh founders and executors of an idea that was birthed around creating a space
for birthing new ideas around media and media in its entirety. to uh journalism uh photography, recording and all creative ideas around media and journalism
and uh we're going to explore that and how he came to do something that's quite unique in the context and is telling multiple stories um in an African context and helping those entrepreneurs that want to birth their ideas in those spaces um bring them to life. So Moraice, welcome to the African do podcast. And may I say

1:09
as you explain to me what it is that as you are explaining to me what it is that Barza Media, I think this is exactly why we do this podcast
because these are the things that
I think one of the areas that uh we've been left behind as a continent is
telling our stories.
Telling our stories and thus curating our narratives in our own way. So kudos as we start for taking the step to do that.
So maybe maybe let's start at the beginning and let's not go back. We'll go back into the past and what inspired this.
But in your own words, tell us about Barazza Media. H how long has it been around?
Yeah.
What does it do and who does it impact as a result?
First of all, thank you. There's a Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. There's a word that you've used that I'm growing to fall in love with narratives. Yes.

2:04
And I'll explain why later. Um
so basically Baraza Media Lab um is a space and a place for experimentation
of uh new ideas,
new business models, new storytelling uh models for the media and the creative space.
Um and uh this was uh basically brought up because there was a challenge with how media was functioning globally. but also particularly in Kenya and some of the things that were affecting it were or still affecting it is revenue sources. Um mainly because I mean some of that has been taken over by other forms of media.
Um if you look at in this case I'm talking about media as just journalism first.
Yes.
So you see the revenues dwindled because there are some other formats that took over uh the the the the revenues. Secondly, trust has just eroded because there's a lot of information. So where do you trust or who do you trust? Before you know if you saw something on the news or newspaper, you're like new.

3:03
Yes,
that's it.
Um then uh the other thing was talent with the ad in the advent of technology. You know better technology is coming up. How does the talent keep up?
Yes.
Um and and then that necessitated um our initial funer to do a research. So they did a research um to determine like what is ailing the media space and they found out basically these uh three things plus another one which is media ownership.
Yes.
Um and they said how what are some of the solutions we could have that could help to make media survive the next generation.
And they said let's have a space that can go and experiment. So experiment on new talent ideas, skill new talent, experiment on new technologies. Um have more media owners so that it's not just the custodian of two three people.

3:53
Uh you know before when you add your music uh you have to go to a TV station or give a DJ but right now you can just post on YouTube or give a couple of people to dance on Tik Tok and that's it. So it has become decentralized. So there's no growth in the journalism side that does not affect or is not affected by the other media side.
So if you're a DJ, if you're a musician, if you're a podcaster, if you're a writer, if the growth on this side, the growth on this side definitely affects this side.
So you have to figure out how they merge, how they live together and how they push uh the limit of first of all access to information again sharing our own narratives.
Yes. Um and lastly uh that will also lead to a lot of solving a lot of problems that we have from governance to health to you know all those kind of things.

4:41
Excellent.
So when did you start
and what have your learnings been?
You know the beauty about being in a space of creation is you never know what you're going to find when you get into it.
That's a good thing. So when did you start and in the period since you started what what insights have you got gotten
uh that help you to continue to build this space
you know you know when you said that this podcast is unscripted it's truly unscripted cuz then then I have to think off the feet you know um but it's good cuz then I say things that are raw it's not
yes
you know I've not I didn't plan and come and write notes um
so we started in 2019 December 2nd that's when the doors opened

5:24
okay Um and we started it. The reason why I said then it was not a as a space as how we operate. It's not a new concept.
It's just a new sector cuz before this um I used to run a space called Meta Nairobi. Not the Facebook Meta.
Yes.
But Meta Nairobi which was based out of 14 Riverside. And the idea was very similar a physical space
with a community of people who are like-minded. they'll come and work together to solve for common challenges.
Yes.
Either if it's access to information, access to funding, um access to talent and they collectively work to do that.
So we just transposed that idea to this and said let's move it to the media and the creative space.
Um but this was going to be different. This is going to have a bit more incubation in terms of supporting entrepreneurs a bit financially, space-wise and all that and research.

6:16
Yes. Um so 2019 we start off uh and we quickly closed in 2020 because of COVID.
Um and that what what we started learning there is how do you support people virtually where you don't have to have a physical location. Um and some of those things were yes research sometimes just webinars um mini grants here and there for people to do their work. Um and we you know we learned the hard way of how to deal in a sector that uh you know it's not like the the way creatives and media operate it's almost based on the person the individual um you know
and that also comes in with a lot of risks but also a lot of opportunities a lot of risk in the sense that our first like micro grants that we gave I think only four people did the work

7:03
the others just disappeared you know
and you're not following a company you're following an individual
um so we also learned like okay so this space might need a little bit of like structure and resources cuz it's not their fault you don't want to ask nobody asks a doctor like hey why are you not good at accounting
you know you ask them like why are you good at medicine
true
but then what we notice also at that time that let's not repeat the same mistake with creatives where we ask a musician why are you not good at accounting and legal documents
yes
um but let's give them resources that enables them so the quick learning that we got within that period is like can create more resources to make it easy for creatives to do the other work that is not essential but not it's not critical for them as an individual to know so I need an accountant I need IP I need um

7:52
um I don't know secretarial services I need production
research services
research services just give them resources that makes that easier but do not require them to be a researcher
so that's a quick learning that we got and you we don't work to change them we work to enable them So how do you solve for those? Do you provide them with partnerships?
Yeah. So for example, a one-stop shop where you can find legal services, you know, uh accounting services that are already pre-negotiated for you. You can find a space where you don't have to ask somebody, please set up for me a camera. And that's actually how sear box became to be cuz you like
I am um I'm a legal expert who I'm a journalist and I'm I want to talk about legal issues. I do not know how to go and cut and edit and all that. on top, edit the full range of things, post it for you. So that also helped us to kind of learn a bit of things. So we have those kind of like pre-negotiated all those things with the various vendors that support the creative ecosystem. Um then the other thing that we also learned over time now between

8:57 then and now is that the problems that the creatives are facing in Nairobi and it's this is not new but the problems that creatives are facing in Nairobi is wild apart from the problems that people in other towns are solving for
cuz once we started off in Nairobi we thought like ah now we are good then we go out u first of all we we go out of riverside it's a different problem
um when you want to convene creatives in of on this location you send an email and a calendar invite they show up
that does not exist uh 25 minutes away from here you go to Mukuru you go to D no you have to say either it's a WhatsApp message or a message
that's how we show up
right so even how we organize how creatives organize for their events for their shows in different parts of the country different parts of the town it's very different

9:49
and uh we started learning and adapting as an organization Then started doing like, okay, let's start WhatsApp groups.
Yes.
And let's have those creatives do their own things. I was so happy the other day seeing that photographers convened and they were like, you know what, we've been covering this Mandam Mano. It's hectic. It's crazy. It's mentally derailing.
We just need a space and somebody who can come and talk to us about mental health.
Okay?
And that's them organizing, you know. So, we started noticing like we do not need to fit people into our
old mold. Let them be and let's meet them where they are. M
um we also started noticing that the way media and the creative space is being used um and the the word used is intentionally put there with a lot of people is not sustainable.

10:31
Yes.
So you find either it's an NGO, it's government, it's a corporate.
If they have something they're like oh let's do this thing then let's patch one article.
We're talking about democracy. Yeah. Bring one journalist to write about democracy or bring one musician to read to sing about it.
But we never see it as something that needs to exist by itself. There are very few organizations that are doing that. You know, you are British Council, your HA fund and the rest.
But there are very few. Most of them are looking at them as a means to an end. Okay.
You know, um Yeah.
So earlier on when in your opening like Gambit, you talked about funding.
Yes.
Funding. I I consider funding is that a bit of an oxymoronic topic in a Kenyan context because

11:13
um I have come to learn that funding and trust are are related.
Yeah. 100%.
So when you talk about your early funders, yeah, who are they? because there's there's this whole debate about um the relationship between funding and narratives
you know because in Kenya we we do have examples and now that we have become a lot we have as Africans we have become a lot more introspective we are asking yeah um
funding is that thing because it's used both for the good and for the bad you know um we had um Jonan telling us about African uncensored
and whenever he touches on a very sensitive topic
the quick brush off is that you're funed by foreigners so your interests are not Kenyan while if you interrogate it in a bit more detail

12:10
you realize that that's not the case
so what is what has your initial funders and I noticed I picked up that you said early stage that means have you got other funders progressive ly since 2019 and how is that journey looking like? Yeah and and yeah funding is 100% on trust and and whichever funding either philanthropy venture capital because before I used to work in a venture capital so that place also there's a lot of
to unpack there are some nuances there exactly like who's funded who's why am I not getting funded there's a lot of things there that boils down to trust and comfort
it's almost like if you are my friend there are some friends you don't give money you know they are friends

12:53
agreed
but you don't give money um and that's how funding works too to um for Baraza's work cuz Baraza we're working first of all with a community um that if you charge an arm and a leg then you've lost almost all of them. So you have to be a bit lenient on your services
and that means that inherently we um we become an NGO.
Yes.
And if you're an NGO you are also limited to what kind of pool of funding you can access. So for us then that limits us mostly to de development partners and philanthropy organizations that are mission aligned. Um and where we got the initial funding, it's not secret cuz we we the research that was done was done by Odia Networks.
Okay.
Uh for those who don't know Media Networks, it was founded by Odia Pierre,

13:39
the founder of eBay.
Yes.
Who then used most of his money to basically I would say comfortably say develop a lot of African tech ecosystems. Yes,
he's the first ones to find IHAB, first one to find CC hub which then later on bought IHAB now.
So basically I would
give a bit of um you know gravitas to their work they have done in the tech startup scene in in the on the continent.
Yes. Then they moved focus now to start looking at governance issues because they noticed that yes you might fund a lot of startups but if governance issues are broken these startups are not going to survive also from a policy level and all that
and the person who was leading the that side is called AI Oko

14:20
um so AI um then became I think managing director if I'm not wrong of luminate which is a subsidiary of media networks before she was leading Odia networks then Odia networks uh went into different spaces so they had flourish They have imaginable futures. Flourish supports in fintex. Imaginable futures support um ed tech. Then luminate that supports governance and all and civic spaces. Um and those are the initial funders cuz they did the research and found out like actually we need sort of like an innovation creative space, committee space for media and the creative space.
So that we have more media organizations then which then allows people to do their work freely.
So those are our initial founders. Interesting you say that and and I know AI. So is a friend

15:06
but there's also something nuanced there that you have brought out
that the fun is media and we know where media emerges from
but there is I dare say that there's a strong case
for that fun
to not ignore local context
and for media not ignoring local context
is having AI
because AI is very local she understands the nuances locally
and I find in my in my journey of entrepreneurship and fundraising
I find those conversations to be the most effective
doesn't matter where the money is come from it may be local it may be international but the person who is you're sitting in front of
you know let me give you an example when we when we talk about uh going to mut you you you said that 25 minutes from here It's a different way to communicate.

16:06
That's that's a nuance that will not be apparent from someone who hops off a plane
and comes to execute here
and may be thinking um why isn't this working? Why isn't this working? Why isn't this working?
They're not homogeneous, you know, different people. Uh my wife is a is a marketer's a brand marketer and she once joined an organization where a foreigner heading an organization in Kenya says oh a blanket statement like radio doesn't work in Kenya and she's like what what do you mean radio doesn't oh no we tried radio 3 years ago
it doesn't work but radio has evolved radio vernacular radio is on top and so on
so that's a very good nuance but let's go back to um
you telling us a bit about the different elements of the people you are backing. Yeah. So, let's let's delve into those a bit. We have photographers, we have podcasters, we have creative and then we'll follow that with a with a talk about your strategic partnerships because SE box I would say is the most successful in those strategic partnerships where two people come together

17:13
and your objectives align and then the output benefits very many people.
Yeah. Before you do that, there's something you've said that is very important. I do believe honestly if AI was not on the table, Baraz will not exist.
Okay.
Um I strongly believe that um even the the the the growth the the the changes that Barza is or the effects that Baraza is having in the ecosystem would not have existed if she has not seen that.
Yes. cuz more than also has very unique background where she's from the tech side, she's from the VC side and investment side
and sometimes what we've seen is um as entrepreneurs
is that we we do not want to engage with government or anything governance

17:55
but that's our biggest um um uh citor 30% of our fair you know we pay them 30% of our total earnings every single month you know and they can shut us down with one legislation So it's actually imperative that you do as an entrepreneur whatever space you tech agriculture whatever that you 100% engage in in governance and policy issues cuz you are the biggest beneficiary or loser.
Uh and that connection to see that what affects this side is also information and media you know as a fourth estate was spot on. Yes. Um and we've seen in the last two years what that space has done for just governance. Um so for us also like when we started looking at media at that time when the research was being done is that we discovered like this this space is changing and changing fast.

18:48
Mhm.
Um and and there was a lot of pressure there's still a lot of pressure on journalism like even if somebody goes and starts a podcast today like this one and says you know rubbish the first people that will be beaten like ah to a media you know
and the people that the public means is journalists. So we started seeing okay why don't we look at media the public has already looked at media as expansive they look at it look at it as expansive
so bring in podcasters
bring in writers bring in filmmakers bring in um content creators
yes
um yes they're not governed by the laws of media council and all that to some extent
but there's a law you know under ca or other people that govern that space

19:29
um so we started bringing in um our first so we had membership so people signed up to members. I think we had over 120 something members.
That was dis No, that was sometime in March 2020. M
at that time we are like okay we are l there's nothing is happening the space is dead you know you're paying rent cuz people are not meeting so what do we do then um Deda uh for some reason cuz Dan was there during the the the launch I remember starting a conversation with Dan a guy called Stan who was at luminate um there's al kags who's at open institute um and just brainstorming like and I think also my colleague Christine was there and start brainstorming what What is this SE box? So Dan had started something called Studio Tissa.

20:15
Yes.
So Tissa was this interesting idea. I I I still believe it. He should continue doing it. Um he started this almost like a music accelerator thing
where you come you do a live performance in a space and then it's live streamed and people pay like donate something. I think it was a brilliant idea of actually centering like up and cominging um musicians. but he has all this equipment and all that. So I'm like okay why don't we start something like a podcast and at that time podcasting was big in other parts of the world in Kenya specifically it was still like something that people are like uh we don't know what it is right so we come in and we we push first the first thing that we do is set up social media channels with Dan at that time when Dan is starting it um I'm we're almost like employees too

21:06
we are supporting either financially or space-wise but we're also doing the doing you I'm taking meetings on his behalf. He's setting up the space and he's painting. He's on our weekend. He's painting the wall green. Sbox's first logo was actually a green logo with white saying box.
Uh he's doing the logo himself. We setting up accounts. I'm a director, you know, like everybody's doing everything. At that time there's nothing like investor supporter. That time you're all in the trenches.
Yes.
Um because we believed like this thing could be big.
Um so that's how we started working with Dan. Um, we set up the first thing and I think his first client was amnesty and I remember it was a show. Yeah.

21:43
Not because of Dan or any because we didn't we didn't know how to deal with swinging it.
Exactly.
So setting up structures and I think the best partnerships especially for this one with the sema box was the sense that Dan as somebody who's also self-aware came in and said you know I don't know how to manage people. I'm a musician. uh I can try but managing people strategy how to structure organizations and processes that's your thing you've done it before help me
so it was a very clear relationship where it is like this is my strengths I'll stick to this you do not know how to produce do not come to my set and do this you manage help me do these things Dan do you have a board
Dan do you have bank accounts

22:26
Dan what are your HR policies
um Dan uh what what is your structure in terms of how you pay and how you appraise people.
So those are things that we were supporting on the side
um
and what how do you get more clients? So those were things that we did and it's since grown to just be
you know I I also credit it credit box itself as the grandfather of podcasting
in Kenya.
In Kenya agreed
at some point I will even give it to the continent cuz when they started and they post it out on a continental group that Dan and I are in everybody was saying bring it here. So Dan had the opportunity to be in South Africa, Cape Town specifically.
Dan had the opportunity to be in Uganda. Dan had the opportunity to be in Nigeria. And these were like big organizations saying, "Come set it up. We like the model that you're doing it." Um, and since then I've seen like spaces pop up. Since then, I've seen people have podcasting studios in their living rooms.

23:20
Since then, I've seen podcasting become a very big and even all corporates are pushing their CEOs to do a podcast
at least. Yes. Yes.
So, it's a growth. there's some ripple effects to that and there are some people who started here who I'm seeing now are doing very big things on their own so that's a good thing
the other partnership actually that is not conspicuous but was really powerful was with John Allen at African censored
and uh Barack at Barak was running called Caterpially incorrect podcast
yes yes
so they started something called um Shahara
and Shahara was basically solving one problem where Most creatives were coming here producing content putting it on YouTube.

24:00
Yes.
But the way YouTube calculates the CPMs and all that on what you're earning is very obscure.
Yes.
So they said a platform that now is being used I think the the um they say a platform where you you have a one-time link. You watch that video you cannot reshare it but you pay to get that link. And the idea back then was like um it was just around when John Allen was doing um fertilizers something around the scandal.
The scandal.
Yes.
So John Allen invested in that business.
Um and the idea back then was that then it becomes a place where you put your investigative pieces that if you put on YouTube nobody pays for.
But now you can pay five shillings. You can pay four shillings but then it pays back for the investigative work.

24:46
Fair enough. that was also a place soul also came in and invested in it
and the idea was like that's the place where you put your behind the scenes and we had other conversations even musicians from like you know West Africa who wanted to a platform like that um and that's the beauty about bara then people can experiment so it is there it has not been conspicuous it has been used a lot but it's a very interesting idea and um I remember on that night when the fertilizer story was coming up we had to stay until almost midnight debating should we put it on this new platform where we know we could earn something but you put on YouTube
what are the risks if you put it on this platform this platform will be

25:24
you know government or government supervisor the perpetrators will come after it so how do you work around it uh and you end up putting it on YouTube so you put it on YouTube from midnight to around I don't know the next day it attracted in almost thousands of views then pull it and pull it back this side which again it also brought in some money
excellent
um so there are some experimentations like that um some other interesting experimentation and partnerships that have happened here is um I think TT&T 2
TT&T is this is it through thick and thin by Jagouch
and decided one then the second one he did it here cuz it was co and experimentation for me that was a place that was almost like that place of like we've

26:04
sometimes even just physical infrastructure is
good enough for put to experiment
and then now 22 is selling out 6,000 3,000 people per show
you know same to I think uh Abel Muta also signed his shows in the house. The first place he came and did like a a show was here and now he's doing you know 3,000 4,000 full uh capacity.
Yeah. You know what where I like conversations and I've just come from a a meeting this morning where I said to the people I was meeting with I think we underestimate the power of a good conversation.
Yeah. And why? So what you've just told me about that that aspect of SE box and the WhatsApp group specifically the WhatsApp group for me it's bittersweet. It's great that it's coming out so that we can hear this story because you don't know who they're going to inspire. Yeah,

26:56
but there's als people from West Africa, South Africa are reaching out to Dan. Yeah. And asking him come here that he had some resources that he could tap into immediately
and say guys we have done a good thing here. We're now being called to do it in multiple countries. Can we build a plan around that?
Yeah.
So that maybe it'll happen. But that those are some of the conversations I hope we can trigger and see in our lifetime
where
and maybe even go a step further and see local capital participating in it. So, you know, Dan can find a product, you know, from the stock exchange and say I'm one year old and there's demand for me to go in. I need like uh 10 million per country to set up and it's five countries and working capital. So, I'm trying to raise like 75 million shillings,

28:04
which is doable. Yeah,
we have stuck with another piece of land for 5 million because we've been saving and this what we're collecting when you have people like that. So those are the things I hope we we trigger
and and and that's the one thing that now we've learned again as Vaza. So as an experimental space we get to see a lot of ideas.
Mhm.
Um and there's a full graveyard of those ideas within this space
and one of the critical thing is funding. And the funding the way you've put it most of us when we look at funding we look at philanthropy funding or we look at VC funding
yes
there's somebody here who can do 300k 1 million 300 million and all that what we've learned over time is that it's becoming more accessible especially on the tech space cuz I I can speak from both sides it's really on the tech space where there's like you know coordinated groups that are doing a bit money here

29:00
yes
on the creative space there's still a bit limited information about that space.
M
um but there are people who are investing in. So you have a festival, you see somebody coming in and saying we have a group of six people,
we're giving you 18 m.
Yes.
Go do your thing. You pay us in. It's almost like working capital financing
cuz we know this festival like let's say let's pick one. Um I don't know festival or festival.
No, I know one recently um that I have some friends who brought Sean Paul.
Yeah. and had a very successful show
and you know that there'll be brand there'll be people who are paying there's vendors there's there's a there's a very clear
there's a model to it there's a model and what you just need to be flexible as a founder is to understand that this is a different model

29:45
it's not this and there's money
and actually this money might even be actually more lucrative
than your bank loans cuz this one cuz this one is like in two weeks 3 weeks I'm paying you cash you know and I'm paying you plus interest
so what we've come to think of as barazza is documenting those case studies that in a way that gives confidence in this space and I'm sure it's not new probably some somebody has done this work before
but there's money in the creative space I've seen people who invest even in fashion designers and then they get their money back but to your point I like what you're saying in terms of like narratives
what are the narratives that being shared there about creatives you know they don't know to do this they don't know how to do this there's no cons there's a very clear way of how people could get their money back

30:28
yes
and there's ways that infrastructure or or even um or even um institutions like NC could build some things like that. I know they have a sandbox that they put people like I think was it um
Pesha and the rest. Is there space for any creative businesses to be within that space?
Yes. Um so I I I think there is there is um work to be done in terms of documentation and narrative forming for what investments in creatives will look like
and investments could start with even like you know Morris Mudachi and the other person doing like
a few cash here and there to this business cuz when Dan started this thing
um and and this growth um trajectory so I don't know if you said this there's a bank that refused to give him cash.

31:14
Yes he did. It was so bizarre for us like we are like even as an institution as Barasa we were like we are backing this guy
like he's a creative business his camera loan is is almost more than the money you want to give him like he's going to pay it
but there's a bank that refused and if I look back and see the contracts and the work that D has done right now I think yeah like it's so it's so sad that nobody has a creative way of how to even do credit scoring Episode two of this podcast is um Navalo of Ender Athletic. Yeah. Which is a bittersweet story, but a great story nonetheless because I think we should also embrace our failures completely. But Navalo says something very interesting

32:02
and it's a statement that I I've come to love. She's like, "Let's get comfortable with giving our people the adequate money that they need. Even if they will fail, we have gotten comfortable with losing that money to corruption. We may as well give it to creatives to try because in the trying there are lessons and in those lessons those are the people who come back and do it bigger, better, more informed, better resourced." You know,
when I started my first restaurant,
I knew I like to say that I knew
I knew the restaurant business, but I did not know the business of restaurants.
Yeah.
You know, so creating menus, serving you, mixing you a great cocktail, creating an excellent dish that I knew.

32:52
Perfect.
But now what does the investor look or look look for? What's their return on investment? What's capital expense? How much working capital do I need for how long? that I did not know that I learned the hard way by failure. Yeah. So I think we should get more comfortable with that. Yeah.
I even think I even think we we are very and it's maybe it's human nature. We like easy wins
and we give money to success.
Proven success. But this proven success is somebody who did the leg work to make it a proven success.
Agreed. So we don't want to do the leg work of like you know um let me walk with Dan through this journey and to build that stacks and learnings that then makes him successful. We want to come in it's already ripe and that's why

33:35
I think it's laziness. It's laziness and that's why we get we lose a lot of money to Ponzi schemes and because it's easy is success. Exactly. Yes.
Because um
and that's that's the challenge that I'm seeing with how we invest and the psyche of how we invest
and and that's why when you know quail eggs become something people rush there. When uh uh capot becomes something people rush there cuz it's easy success. um to some extent to some extent the learning that I've gotten is also because maybe most of our and spec specifically black Africans is the you know first time wealth holders.
Yes. So it becomes risky for you to do anything risky cuz when I when I was working at Meta the one thing I learned is actually the people who were very audacious and trying were the Kenyan Indians

34:21
cuz for them
they were not the first time wealth holders had money they were trying out but also their business was being disrupted by the
safety net somewhere because again if you doing uh building materials the cheaper imports from China
so you're like okay let me diversify. Um I think for me it's like the wealthy Kenyans or even people who are you know like cuz I don't know like have you seen the way some people contribute to funerals
some people contribute easily a million shillings.
Yeah. Um, and this is my very, you know, I don't I don't know what people think about this, but a contributive body that is going to the soil
300,
you didn't give that guy,
you only give somebody who's going to start a business, but potentially you could get more. And I think maybe it's because of the finality of death where you're like, I'm not contributing again to this cause. You're gone.

35:14
Um, and we we I think the way we we look at investments is the way we look at contributions, is the way we look at uh Yeah. like with finality.
Maurice, I think what you're saying is right, but I also think it will change
because I also think one of the challenges we have had and many African countries have
is we don't have visible builders
of wealth. Yeah, we have cronists, kleptocrats. Yeah, even some extremely intelligent. But we all know in a Kenyan context how proximity to the state can give you and maybe that's why our our politics are so combative
because you have a myriad of examples of people from various communities. It's not even a tribalism issue because people h every community you go to you can you can pinpoint a person

36:10
who went into office or into state. Now
shut up. That's not I'm not even talking about this from a right or wrong perspective. It just is.
But I'm saying
there lacks a counternarrative of Morris.
Morris I saw Morris built Sema box and I saw him built it from or Baraza media or Dan I saw Dan and now Dan has 300 cows in his sh. And what does this guy do? He runs a podcasting studio and someone starts scratching their head saying, "Oh man, I remember Dan when he had nothing and now he has this 300 cows because he built a podcasting studio and was able to afford this." So I think that counternarrative is what is happening now.
You know, you know, actually you you you raised something that is very interesting like that counter narrative. So this quick quick richness and I think there's the generation that saw that oh quick richness is government

37:03
and government tenders and you know and cronism and corruption and nepotism. Then there's this generation this so we released a research um I think a week or two ago which was showing actually the the the current generation of Jenzas the most of them out of the research of of,500500
people um most of them saw content creation as their best
job job space and I think because there's narratives and there's a counternarrative of like
I've I started with one follower now I'm this now I'm big now I'm earning this so they see that example they're like okay I also want in and I think if you trans if you
take that and move it to the entrepreneurship space
where there's legit
growth

37:51
yes
of of businesses and there's more and more of those stories and people want to critical exactly people also don't take a chance to legit businesses
I I think it's very true I think it's very very true
and and we will see going forward we haven't seen as much in the past many of us who've been an entrepreneurial space have been lamenting the lack of local why why do I end up in rooms where I'm the only local pitching my idea why don't I have one or two people even if they are 10 one or two people who are my people
you know who can who know me when I say I went to DGO or patch or bush or you know or kisumu boys you know they can relate and they say hey kisumu boys those guys are very good at you know, I know something about them. So, why don't we see that? I I think we're going to see more of it because we have a lot more

38:45
non kleptocratic cronist wealth being created now more than ever before. You talked about you know I remember on um Real Housewives of Kangar and I was like this young man is really he's just naturally funny and to see what he has evolved into today. you know. Yeah. And you look at all these guys, look at, you know, and you're like, "Yeah, these guys." But you can you can now say when when you see like I saw the other day when you see Ben in his Porsche Cayenne in the streets,
you're not
looking for the parasetto that he plundered. You know, you can trace.
Yeah. Yeah.
That this guy, oh, his dad singing here and they used to
Kinabian used to perform in my restaurant. And one of my staff, former staff was reminding me

39:38
how they used to h ask for a lift from the staff transport to go to tow
after the performance because they didn't have their own cars and now to see them to be these global successes.
I think that story's been changed now.
Yeah, we're changing the story
as and that's great. But let's come back to to to
Barza. Barza is no longer just
a single outlet. you've become uh in in the restaurant business we say you've become a multi-unit operator. Yeah. So how's that journey been and what learnings have you garnered from moving from a Nairobi based institution
to both multi- town and how's that journey going for you?
Um so we we we one of the thing one of the biggest motivator was that learning of like we cannot treat um Nairobi as a center. uh and the learnings that we getting is that you know uh media and the creative space that it's consumed it's perceived in various places is totally different. So if you want to change how this space looks like we also have to go and meet people where they are.

40:42
Yeah.
So in 2021 we started going physically the team
will go and do like workshops. We go and talk to creatives in in in secondary cities. So we'll go to Malindi. We'll go to Kifi. We'll go to rural parts of Kisumu you know
all those counties. Then we um we got a lot of data in terms of like how those people relate, how they view um uh the creative space and the media space. One is because creatives are almost like you know they're almost like the weird ones in the community. Yes.
They have to be eccentric. They have to be something something is not okay for you to be creative, you know.
And most of these guys will not be okay in a small town in Homa. They'll go to the city. They'll go to

41:23
Kisumu. Yes.
So that's where we started. We decided like okay let's map out the cities that are easier for us to get into and map out Kisumu Nakuru Mombasa and then even in Nairobi you know like okay we are on this side of riverside we are which is really different from let's say if we go to Eastlands Mombasa outside so we set up another space in industrial area
um and the the internal learning that we're getting is that running this space is not running multiple of them
different cultures different communication styles different audience. Um we need to even think about our team. How do you manage from um a team of we started off as a you know three or four to now we are like 25 or 26. How do you manage that growth? How do you manage systems where

42:10
everything is done almost similar like the the brand the culture the so it was a lot of learning within the last um
two years basically of this
expanded growth. Um but the the exciting thing for us is seeing the the stories that are coming from the ground of how Baraza exists. So like yesterday we were celebrating cuz one of um events that we had in Kisumu
uh we intentionally source for up and cominging artists to perform there. So we become their first client
cuz anyway if you're supporting me you need to believe in me. So we become their first client and hopefully they become bigger and better. And these guys came back after our show which we paid them I think 10k or 15k.
Granted um

42:54
it was more of like we are paying you
for your time.
Yes.
Um it might not be enough or it might be a lot but you we're paying for your services. Um they use that money to buy a guitar. That's their first guitar.
Wow.
As a band of three and they came back to launch it at Baraza and they're coming back to give us thank you as like you believed in us with the gig that you gave us. We bought another guitar. This guitar is going to enable us to become better and get more gigs. Absolutely.
And small little stories like that might not matter to somebody on Riverside
because a guitar is like I don't know 13 15k for a normal one
doesn't matter right but for somebody that's like game lifechanging for us. So that kind of stories those kind of impact that we're creating in very in places that would not have had that opportunity is what keeps us going.

43:39
Um and we've seen multiple multiple stories um uh that are coming out of these locations. um in uh Khifi Malindi specifically we've been working with a group called thei trust um Oliver Kagwa and uh we at some time back we we took uh James Smart and Maxima to Malindi and basically we're saying hey go and just share your story and tell them how to use Tik Tok tell them line of journalism and all that and one of the ladies who came for that event is a border border rider um and through her work with the list she got super interested in like the social media world and she ventured into Tik Tok and for some reason there's a post that she did and she got like a 100,000 followers instantly on Tik Tok and now she's become a sensation in Malindi who's doing like local

44:31
um advertising for local products there's a time there's a time that there was a harassment there's a
of a lady who was driving around I don't know what road
with Buddha border riders and she became the voice of reason in her community where she was telling the bordaba riders like you guys I'm also I'm female and I'm one of you. So imagine you doing that to me like and people are like okay you know I'm sorry tone down and and so stories like that for us is like it might seem as just you guys are in Mindi but the stories that come out of that the impact that comes out of those spaces the sustainability that comes out of that place cuz now I'm no longer a Buddha borda rider I'm also earning from content creation now I'm no longer just a musician I'm actually having a guitar and I can perform professionally so those are the stories that keep us going um and and uh The growth from that place is that we had an idea of like we have to grow into these spaces. Now we need resources. Um for us it came about

45:25 there's a big program we doing called Sara. Sara is powered by Mastercard Foundation. And the work for us was just to say the pitch to us was like guys we need infrastructure. We need infrastructure for creative spaces to thrive.
You know New York will not be New York if they don't have those underground comedy shows. Yankee stadiums not creativity will not be so you know uh the Broadway shows in in New York they don't have the theaters
um if you look at Kenya like for example even theater apart from uh we don't have a theater we have
other auditoriums you know we have auditoriums for schools to go and do their shows not theater really theater you know other K& um but then the others are school they're also very they are centered in particular location so that means a certain subset of the committee is left out

46:22
in fact our first pitch was to governments
so when we had this idea before uh Sara came on board we went and talked to the Nairobi countyame county and the pitch to them was like you guys have this thing when I grew up um um and my grandfather used to stay here in Kako remember going to Kak and Ziwani and they used to have social halls.
Social hall. Yeah.
I was like these social halls, what are you doing with them?
We just need a room. Just give us that.
Yeah.
We'll paint it. We'll make it a useful place for creative and arts to come and use. And that was the initial pitch.
And we we we got we got headways, right? Norbe County, uh Governor Sakaja gave us like we'll give you there some Majeno. We talked to D&G in Woodley. So there was a couple of spaces. Um the reason why that didn't work is like working with government also to be honest proved to be challenging.

47:13
Yes.
Um not because of maybe the governor or the MCA but you find there's layers of people that you have to deal with. You have to deal with the local goon in in this community.
Then you have to work with the MCA then you have to work with you know with the the chair of the creative and something committee. Then you have to work with the deputy governor. Then you have to work with the governor. So it's
a strong element of gatekeeping.
Yeah. And became challenging. M
um that's why we never went the the the government side although that would have been a very good public private partnership cuz these spaces to be honest right now have been left to be
you know they're not being used effective as they used as they used to be. I remember the place used to be a hot bed of boxing. You know, you'll go there to watch people box

47:58
um or performances. Um so then we went this route where uh basically the support that we got was for kitting the spaces. So we had to figure out how to get the spaces and kit them. So if you look at the places where we are, they are fairly affordable spaces. Then the kitting is now being done through this uh grant funding.
Okay. um that then will allow us to have um um studios. Um for now it's just more of like you know vlogging, podcasting.
So where are you? Where where do we find Baraza Media currently? How many locations?
So So right now we're on Riverside Drive is the main one. Um we are on um industrial area
uh at the intersection between Enterprise and Loni Road.
Yes.

48:40
And I must tell you industria is very
misconstrued. People misunderstand industrial.
Yes. cuz this place is awesome and it's buzzling with activities. Buzzing with activities. So if you're on if you are coming from Mombasa road just upl you turn left 5 minutes from is it called green span or green park estate.
It's just there. So it's not deep into like the industrial spaces.
Yes. Yes.
Um it's we've taken over like an old bank. Uh the good thing is that there's a couple of startups there. There's one called Mobil
uh who are there Mary Mangi.
Um so we are building a community there. Uh another person who was supposed to come and didn't come is Sandbox. So we trying to build a community that can approach that side.

49:18
Then the other space is in Nakuru. Nakuru is in one of these very old buildings called CK Patel.
Yeah.
Nakuru. CK Patel. So that's also really nice for us.
Then in Kisumu is where we got in at least with a good um discussion with the county and the Lake Basin Mall. So we're at Lake Basin Mall.
Okay.
The beauty about that is that if you go to that mall, it's empty.
It's 90% empty. M
so you get in you know we are there also with the lake hub run by James OD so there's a couple of startup and community building there um and it's becoming basia
um I think cuz the road is also being constructed there I think is kamega road
then in Mombasa we're also in CBD um a place called Shazmir Towers the reason why we chose CBD is because Mombasa is very interesting you know the city if you're in town on this other side you have um

50:15
Nali on the other side you have Mutwapa and you know so people people always cross town they always come to CBD if you go to you've excluded these guys if you go to to fara side you've excluded there
the guys um so we said CBD is the best so we had CBD um then in
the ones that I'm really excited about I mean I'm excited about all these spaces
um I think they all have very interesting and different potential uh the Nakuru cuz Nakuru is known for musicians as a as a town as a city.
Uh actually it's the city that was voted by the UNESCO as a city of creativity something like that for the last two years.
And the they have a very nice balcony that I see live bands performing there. Um in just crazy cuz the space that it has you could easily host even a show for 500 people.

51:05
Wow.
Yeah. Um then Mombasa is just interesting in the middle of CBD where the county also is very receptive in terms of doing things in the streets. Uh Nakuru I think has uh agreed to work with us to close off one of the streets every one Friday, last Friday of the month and artists are performing there. They're shooting their videos and all that. Um
yeah, so it's they're really nice nice places. Um affordable, safe, um interesting places uh to be. So Maurice, I have worked backwards in your particular podcast episode. It's the first time I'm doing this. So to close off, let's talk about Moraurice, the person. Yeah, we've talked about what you're doing, the fabulous work you're doing at Baraza Media,

51:49
but what's driving this, you know, who are you? What's your background? How do you find yourself in this space?
Yeah.
So I'm actually I'm actually a boring accountant. That's what I went to school to study.
Okay. um and boring in the sense that I I worked at um
so first of all school at Strathmore played rugby
uh played rugby to the highest level was Kenya under 20
um but played rugby for Statmo played rugby for Kenya Harlequins
uh nowadays I play for fun where we just touch people and that's it we don't hurt people
um
but in that nature you know having a rugby background which is very social like you know part it's social cuz you it's teamwork it's you know there's some joy in that work

52:42
um and accounting were not matching
cuz accounting I remember working at General Motors East Africa and a company called farm
which is a achemical company
yeah and it was it was weird cuz you know you are always behind the desk always dealing with your papers um
at that time I think there was no a lot of cloud accounting systems are not very pervasive so you have to deal with paper.
Um so that was very soul breaking for me. Um then I come back to work at Strathmore and I work there under the MBA department uh as a program manager and as a program manager at Statmo you get to interact with all the students. Basically you're the go-to person for everything.
So here I am interacting with 70 people of different background and one of the most exciting moments for me was during uh those tea breaks. uh less so about the tea but more about the people because then when you're there you're talking to a doctor you're talking to this so that networking bit was very exciting for me um and um one thing that I noticed at that time is that I've moved away from my accounting work now

53:42 I'm doing project management and I was still young and I was like okay you know I you can still change your career and I quickly noticed that accounting is not my thing I I need to talk to people I want to talk to people I'm a problem solver for people um so basically it's almost like how do I find like community where do I find a problem is solved through the community uh in action like you bring people together to solve for this um which is very similar to rugby you know you're going to for a rack
yes
or a mole it's very communitycentric if somebody does not lift their weight somebody's falling a
or that ball is lost so so that that kind of mindset is what I I I approach in my work of like we all have something to contribute on the table for this problem and no problem is insurmountable if you all come together you can solve it um so I I often find myself in places where there's people you know, I'm not the problem solver. I'm more of like I'll bring you people to solve the problem.

54:33
Wow.
Um and that also has enabled even from the fundraising side because funders also have a problem. Yes.
Their problem is I need to spend this money.
Uh whether you're a VC or philanthropy and my work is like wait I have these people here.
I have people
come spend your money here. So that's that's where I've found myself and that's what keeps me going.
Wow. Uh Moraice um it's very interesting for me how things are feeding into each other. So um I'm sure the audience are wondering how I get my guests but I get my guests from the guests
interesting. So Dan after I finish Dan he said oh you should talk to Morris he also has an interesting story and I'm enjoying that journey. So first is to thank you for the work that you're doing at Barza Media Lab. I think it's a fabulous story of what we're capable of and we'll continue to track it and I'm sure we'll succeed in changing these narratives

55:26
as we go along the way.
So ladies and gentlemen, there we go. Um that was um episode 28. Yeah. of the African Do podcast with Moriceo of Baraza Media Lab and we wish him all the best as he continues to grow and develop and support creatives and people in current and emerging media to grow and uh bring the ideas to life. So, thank you very much and we look forward to seeing you in the next episode. [Music]