Mwangi Kirubi — transcript

The Camera Never Lies. He Uses That to Change How the World Sees Africa | Mwangi Kirubi Ep. 60

This transcript is generated automatically by YouTube and has not been checked by a person. It misspells names and mishears words, particularly around Kenyan English and company names, so read it as a guide to the conversation rather than a quotable record. Each timestamp opens the video at that moment.

0:05 Greetings, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to episode 60, a milestone we're very proud of. 60 episodes so far. Thank you very much for all your support, listenership, comments, and views. Today, we are very privileged to have a good friend uh with us, Mwangi Kirubi, aka Mwaf, legendary photographer. Uh you've probably seen his clips. If you don't know him, you have seen his most likely rally photos or other photos. Uh and it's a pleasure to have you here, Mwaf. Thanks for having me, Lena. Thank you. Um wow. Um So, where do we start? Let let let's go back. We like to go back to the beginning. And and I like when I speak to you, let me say slightly older. You're not that
[laughter]
Now, when Well, you're not you're not you you're not youth, but you're not too old either. And when I speak to slightly older people, you when you you grew up in an age where photography was not what it is today. You know, when today when you wake up and you tell your parents that you're you're exploring a career in photography and videography, it's not going to be looked at. You know, it it guys would be like, "But in our

1:18 day, you know, people would be like, 'What are you What are you What are you going to do? You know, what is this you are actually thinking of doing?'" Um so, let's go back to the beginning. Where where where where did you start? Where Where did you go to school? Were you brought up? And how do you then eventually find your way to this craft of photography? Uh so, I was born in '77, March '77, which makes me 49 this year. Uh born uh to a middle-class proper middle-class family for living in Buruburu, Umoja, and Donholm estate. So, Donholm is where I spent most of my years. Cuz we moved there in 1979. Uh so, and I lived there up to 2006 when I left left home to my own place. Uh so, my dad uh was a field sales manager at one of the leading beverage companies in in Kenya. He was working for Coca-Cola. My mom was a banker. Uh schools schooled in Parklands at

2:21 Hospital Hill Primary School. From then on, I went to Nyeri where I did my high school in Kagumo High School. And then I trained as a graphic designer. Okay. at Buruburu Institute of Fine Art. Okay. So, I used to just walk Okay. walk to college. It's 20 minutes.
the what's his name? Rex Butama? Yes. Yeah. Yes, Mr. Butama was actually our principal when I was there.
Yes. Yeah. Uh very fine artist, a very good fine artist.
Yeah. Uh so, and I recall I I say my journey or my desire to be a photographer started on one I believe it was an afternoon when I was going back home from college. And I saw a a truck written Film Studios Kenya. Okay. And I was like, "Wow, Film Studios Kenya. That would be Sounds like a nice place to work." And that triggered something in me. Uh a couple of years before that, um my my parents had acquired a home video

3:13 camera, one of those Sonys that you held. Handheld one.
Handheld handheld cameras, Sony Handycam. Good name. And I used to just film short videos at home. Uh back then, anyone shooting video would easily stand out. So, I got called to shoot some couple of weddings, weddings for neighbors. I got some little money out of that.
With the Handycam? With a Handycam. Yes, because I mean, like who else are you Who else was shooting? Yeah. This is where we now This is the
This is in the late '90s. Late '90s, yeah. Late '90s. This is the late '90s. So, camera technology is not what it was today.
Yeah. I mean, back then I was shooting clips of very of very tiny I mean, like it When you talk about resolution, cuz VHS was 720 by 576, which the cheapest of our phones can produce today. And that is something that was considered to be professional back in the day. Uh but in in 2003, uh I bought my first semi-professional camera. It was a film camera. Uh and I started now trying out photography. Now, back then, there was no way you'd actually go to

4:26 receive training on photography. Um maybe some schools, but you'd have to maybe like enroll at a for a university course, maybe communications, and then do film as a as a minor or something. It was one of the classes that you'll actually do. So, there's no one to train. There's no one to teach me this is what aperture means, this is what shutter speed means, this is what ISO means. So, I burnt my fingers a lot. Uh I remember there's once I went for a rally event in uh Athi River. Uh Blue Triangle. Uh and I shot two rolls of film. And I was so excited that I've gotten I've shot in my first rally shot my first rally event and went to the studio, dropped my films in the morning. And in the evening on my way home, I went to pick them and I was told, "Hapa hakuna kitu. There's nothing." What? So, two films gone like that. And it's because I did not know what the things I was using. I did not know what

5:23 shutter speed I did not know what what
You were just shooting.
just shooting. I'm like, "I have a camera. I press, it's taking pictures." But then you go take to the studio and you're told, "Ah, sorry, here there's there's nothing." Wow. And and that is about the same time I was actually working at at an agency. I was got to work at Ogilvy & Mather Advertising. And back then, I mean, the only people allowed to handle cameras or to do shoots were Caucasian men. Um The closest someone with my skin got to a camera was somebody who was just there to change the film. You were a camera assistant. So, for me, I never really saw myself with this being a career. I'd seen the Film Studios truck, but now coming into the reality of the ground, I'm like, "Really? Is it possible for me to actually consider this to be a career?" Yeah. Because there's no one to emulate. The only photographers you know are the guys who come with bikes in the estates,

6:19 Yes. what we call nowadays paparazzi. Uh and the guys who work in the newspapers. That's all. There was no one else doing There was no one else I knew doing photography as a career. Of course, in your advertising agency life, you're seeing, like you said, just Caucasian men.
Caucasian men. Yeah. Uh very good at their craft, but still, how was I a 20-something 24 25-year-old man going to approach and say, "Hey, can you teach me?" But like, it's not possible. There was There was a huge barrier. Yes. Uh from then from working at agency, I moved to radio. I was working at Kiss. Uh at Kiss FM as a writer. Um Even in the agency, I was a I was a I was a copywriter. So, working at Kiss as a writer, I remember Friday afternoons are

7:05 not very busy. So, I had the ability to spend some time on the internet. And uh this is before Facebook. This is before social media as you know it. Yeah. Uh and there was one website called photo.net, which was actually uh sort of like It was a website where photographers from all over the world would actually upload their images. And there'd be critiques, people critiquing, "Oh, I like this. I like this." And they had different categories. There was wildlife, there was nature, there was flowers, there was architecture, uh all sorts of of photography. And they had all sorts of names from all over the world.
Yeah. But when scrolling one afternoon, I chanced upon the name of Mark Keterima. Yes. And I was like, "This sounds like a bite. This sounds like somebody who's I most likely bump into

7:55
[laughter]
along Accra Road or somewhere." Yeah. And [clears throat] that is what now sparked a bulb in me that lit a bulb in me like, "There's a guy like me There's a guy like me Yeah. who's in this forums doing some amazing work." And that led to me quitting my job Um [clears throat] uh with my uh my savings at that time, I bought my first professional digital camera. And then I quit my job and then started decided to actually now do photography. And that was in April 2006. Which is wow. 20 years 20 years
20 years ago this year. 20 years this month. And [clears throat] yeah, so that's how I now ended up into Did you connect with Mark or you just Yes, eventually. I think 13 years later. Yeah. Uh no, eight seven years later, I finally got to meet him when he came for an exhibition where some of my work was on display. He came, shook my hand, and said, "My name is Mark Anthony Keterima." I was like, "Bro, you are the reason that I am here today

9:02 as a photographer." Mark took our wedding photos. Oh, really? Yes. Wow. Wow. Mark is actually a very interesting fellow because he's an engineer. Oh, really? Yeah. He's an aeronautical engineer by trade. So, he worked with my brother at Kenya Airways. Okay.
And he's a he's a but he's a brilliant brilliant photographer.
good photographer. Yeah. Yeah. And [snorts] we've kept in touch since. Excellent. So, now [clears throat] let's take this let let let me be let's get into a bit of more detail of what this journey looked like. Um you um your graphic design, of course, got you into agency, agency into radio. And meanwhile, you're dabbling a bit. And so, when you when you now transition, you make the decision to leave radio and go into

9:47 photography full time, you still had that learning gap. Yes. So, one, how do you leave? And two, how do you start to bridge the learning gap. The learning gap at I believe I got to bridge it because now I'm shooting digital. Mhm.
[clears throat]
So, whatever settings you use on your camera, you see the results instantly. Okay. You're not having to feel a a roll of film, take it to the studio, and then get the results. And even when you're getting the results, you don't know what were the settings when I used this Mhm. [clears throat] when I shot this image. Now, you play with the ISO, you see, "Okay, fine, that is what ISO does." You play with the shutter speed, "Oh, that is what shutter speed does." You play with the aperture, "That is what aperture does."

10:29
Okay. So, the learning was instantaneous. Mhm. And then, uh it was also at a time when this is 2006. So, we have a couple of other photographers who are in this game. Uh there was one guy called Michel Kirumba. Uh there was Francis Wanjina, Francis Wanjina, and and other guys. So, we somehow connected within the photography circles.
Yes. We were all adventure-loving people. Mhm. So, we did get to meet at the rallies, rally events. And then, we just kept in touch. Like, "Hey, try this setting. What does it do?" Mhm. So, there was a lot of peer learning. Yes. Learning from one another, making mistakes together, learning together, and then now growing from that. Okay. So, that's how I was able to be This is before there was tutorials on YouTube.

11:17
Yes. And those Yeah, so there was no tutorials. There was no really platform to go to actually get receive your training. Your training had to be from from peers. Mhm. Uh but sadly, not all peers were cooperating. There are some who felt threatened that fact that, "Hey, if I teach you this, you'll most likely take my job."
Yeah. I remember there was once I asked a a a photojournalist from I think he was working at Standard then. I said, "Hey, I'm trying to buy a speedlight, a flash for my camera. Could you maybe give me some advice, some tips which one I should get?" And he was like, "No, no, no, no, no. Don't even bother getting a speedlight. I mean, like, what almost like what do you know about photography? Why do you even want to better Don't waste your

11:59 money. You know, like, do something else." So, he's very He was very dismissive of me. I was like, "Mhm, okay." Mhm. But, dust that off the shoulder, I still managed to learn how to use a speedlight. Uh at least when whenever you got a a piece of equipment, it had some sort of like tutorials on how to use it.
Yes. So, that it helped a lot. That it helped, but the greatest help came from peers. With whom we walked this journey, and we and we launched.
So, in a sense, you built each other. Yes. Because you're sharing your knowledge, you're learning, he's trying this, you're trying this.
Yes. Yes. But, as you're doing this, how are you living? How are you making your living? How uh So, after I left radio, I actually when at radio is when I met Fadi, Fadi Rostom.

12:46
Mhm. Back then, he was the flash guru. Like, when you needed any flash Yes. stuff, flash online, not flash flash disk. Yes. We need to nowadays differentiate.
Yeah. So, Fadi was uh creating the Kiss FM website.
Okay. And that's when now we got to connect. He was also interested in photography. So, we did go shoot out shoot with him a couple of times. Uh after I left Kiss, I I got we got wind that uh one of the bigger banks in Kenya were looking for an agency.
Mhm. Uh we pitched, and we got the account. Okay. This was Equity Bank. Mhm. Uh this was in 2006, end of 2006, beginning of 2007. And so, now we now formed an agency from that, and then now So, I was still sort of like shooting on the weekends, and then Monday to Friday, I'm on the desk doing copy, doing design, uh doing concepts for for Equity, and also now other clients that we did get to uh So, you you you got like a complete immersion

13:46 into this what has now become uh this term that we hear a lot nowadays, the creative economy. You are actually part and parcel of it because you're in an agency.
Yeah. You're producing copy, you're producing content, you're producing ads. Yeah. But, you're also learning your craft of photography.
Yes. So, where does where does this um uh Click Picture Works Africa Mhm. What How does it emerge? Because that's now uh transitioning from you as an individual to like a a formal company setting. Yeah.
So, it it it got I I think I enjoyed my photography too much more than the copywriting and the advertising work. I was like, advertising, it's good. Uh It's it's paying the bills, but this photography thing is what I really want to pay the bills. This is what This is where my passion is. It's It's the thing that I want to do. I love doing so much, I'd do it for free. Yeah. So, it's like, "How do I make people pay me

14:44 for this?" And the only way to do it was not me having something else that I'm doing just to put my all into it. So, towards the end of 2009, I told Fadi and the guys, we all agreed, I said, "Guys, Chadi's nice, but this photography thing, I really want to do it. I want really want to push it." And they were like, "Sure, no problem. Hey, if you need a place to work from, we're still open. You can still work from here." And I've worked from Ark ever since. Uh but, we're allowing you to like go pursue your photography because you're very passionate about it. So, that's when Click actually started. 2009, September, 1st of September. When I now ventured out and decided this is something that I'm going to do uh full-time. So, that's what I've been doing uh since 2009. Uh photography, uh videography as well. Uh and it's man, it's it's allowed me to to do so many things. And I think the the thing

15:41 that I credit photography and videography for doing is number one, opening doors that I did not even think I'd ever find myself in. Like, I was able to go into State House Yeah. to take photos Mhm.
of the president and his deputy. This is in 2017, so it was Uhuru Kenyatta and William Ruto because I had a camera. Uh I've been able to tour every single county in Kenya uh because I had a camera. I've been able to visit 16 countries in Africa just to Wow. take pictures and videos just because I have a camera. So, it's allowed me to see Africa. It's allowed me to see Kenya in ways that I did not think I would ever have been able to. Mhm. Yeah.
[clears throat]
Let's maybe delve a bit into the economics of being a photographer, Mhm. right? Because um how does how does it work? In the sense that um how do you you you've explained a bit how you get work. You get work from your work.

16:42
Yes. So, I'm I'm sure referrals must be big in your business.
Yes. And people recommending or asking who did this work or who did this assignment. Mhm. But, what maybe walk us through what are the type of assignments a photographer gets? Mhm. Uh I'm sure you must be doing some contracted work where you're sent out to go and photograph either a certain event or an outcome, yeah?
Mhm. And how has that journey been? And then, I know you also, because of I my following you on on uh on Instagram, on Facebook, I know that you also showcase your own work strategically. Yeah. Um maybe walk us through the economics. How do the numbers add up? Okay. And make photography into a viable uh full-time career. Full-time career. Yeah. I'd say I'd say that I've learned on the job. Uh and also, I had a lot of favor when

17:37 starting because when we started, there were very few African photographers available to do what now others we have so many able to do today. Like, documentary work, we were very few. I remember some of the first jobs that I got to do for USAID. Yes. When USAID still existed. Mhm. We were me and a couple of other photographers, we were the first Kenyan photographers to document projects for USAID. Wow. Because previously, some projects would actually have guys coming in from the USA or from other countries to actually come and shoot here, and deliver photos, and then now go back. But, once we proved our worth, and this is from uh clients seeing something you've shot, maybe like you shot a music concert somewhere, they've seen your images. You shot a wedding, so they've seen your images. You shot a sports event, they've seen your images. They're like, "Actually, we have Kenyans producing

18:34 good work. Why don't you give them another opportunity?" Yeah. So, I I really thank clients who believed in us. People who are like, "Yes, this is what the company or the organization has been doing for the last couple of years, but why don't we give the Kenyan photographers a chance?" And uh so, because of that, I was able to get in. We were able We were not able to charge as much as the other guys got to got to charge. I remember some of the first projects uh we were being paid $400 a day, which was a decent amount of money because I'm a single man. I don't really have I didn't have a family. I didn't have a wife. Uh living in a one-bedroom house.
Yeah. So, my expenses were quite quite low. And you're being sent somewhere for like 5 days. And you're So, under normal circumstances, I'd think that maybe if you're shooting 5 days, it will come down to like 350 or $300 a day. They're like, "No, if it's 400, it's 400 times five." Mhm. So, you find at the end of a week, you've made maybe like $2,000, which is money that that could actually keep you going for the for the entire entire month

19:42
Mhm. or even 2 months, depending on what your expenses are. Mhm. And as you said, that project is what would naturally now give birth to other projects because clients do get to talk to one another. Hey, I've seen the work. I've seen your project images from this project. You Who shot that for you? Oh, it's this guy called Marv, or it's this guy called Amunga, it's this guy called Francis, you know. Can you share the contact? And that's where now we're able to now network and continue
network and continue within within those NGO circles. So, there's a time when work was a lot cuz we were just a handful of Kenyan photographers actually doing documentary work. Most of the photographers that I knew back then were actually out shooting weddings most of the time. So, they're busy Friday, Saturday most of the time. During the week they're doing their post-production work. But I did I did that I did get to shoot

20:38 the weddings, but it wasn't it did not give me joy. It did not give me satisfaction. Like I was like, yes, it's nice, but I want to be out taking photos of farmers Mhm. in Nyamira, you know, or somewhere on the slopes of Mount Kenya doing a certain education project. That is what I I enjoyed more. So, that's where I concentrated in my efforts. And then now by this time Instagram has started, Facebook has started, Twitter has started and
Yeah. and clients are giving you the permission to actually now post these images to your social platforms. Yeah. That way now it becomes a way of selling yourself. Yes. There's a saying that I was taught when when getting to the industry which was you're only as good as your last project.

21:25
Mhm. So, the last project you've done, you need to give it your all so that when somebody sees it they're like, oh yes, I want to hire this person. You cannot claim fame or claim worthiness based on something that you shot three projects ago. It has to be the very last project that you've done needs to be excellent and needs to be a level whereby somebody like, yes, I want to I want to hire you. So, that really worked out. It was It was still expensive to start off because now gear we had to buy locally we locally we did not have suppliers of all the equipment that we wanted cuz photography was still sort of like starting out. So, there are some lenses which we could not get locally. If you did get them locally they'd be they'd be maybe twice the price of the RRP recommended retail price. So, I had the benefit of having my mom visiting

22:17 family in the US. So, whenever she's on that side I say, Please get me this. Please get me this lens, please get me this camera, give me these memory cards, give me these batteries. So, that was for me it was easy to get the get the get the gear. Nowadays it's much easier. Nowadays I don't even have to buy all the lenses that I need because there's many rental companies that you can actually go Photography rental companies?
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Get professional grade They even guys who come to film movies in Kenya and they only come all they come with is their suitcases. Because all the equipment is available locally. There are people who have actually made that a business. So, I can actually go hire a lens for a day at a fraction of what it would actually cost me to actually own that lens. So, all I need is my talent and the client connection and after that I can be able

23:09 to do the job. So, that has really helped that nowadays the barrier to entry is much lower. Back then we had to buy every single piece of gear that you needed to use. But nowadays you can easily just hire the equipment that you need, go out shoot, and then return the gear in good condition, pay your dues and and you're good.
that speaks to how the industry has grown, doesn't it?
Yes. From from the time when you couldn't even get someone to teach you to now a stage where you can get high grade material like equipment, top of the range international standard stuff available to you for hire. Not even for purchase.
Speaks to I like um I think what captures for me the explosion, what I call the explosion of um photography in Kenya is Sunday afternoon in the Nairobi CBD.

24:02
Yes. I mean, if you I love CBD because it it takes another life on on on Sunday.
Yes. It's the largest open air studio.
Yeah. And it it just simply blows me away. Sometimes we go with my kids, my wife, we just walk. And you see all these young guys, some are shooting music videos, practicing dance routine, and then there's videography. And if you go around the areas that seem to be popular like around McMillan McMillan library on Kenyatta Avenue, that whole stretch of Kenyatta Avenue, Moi Avenue, in front of City Market.
Yes. Those areas and everyone has lights, has cameras, and they're shooting. And so exciting to see. And for you who's now witnessed it,
[clears throat]
maybe take us through your journey of the industry from you not being able to see yourself in the agency when you see so largely professional photographers of Caucasian origin to now when you watch how has that journey been? What have you witnessed and what can you tell us about it?

25:09
And you know this this transformation has happened in the last less than five years, the last three or four years. In the last four years is when this transformation has actually happened. I remember it was in 2002 June that I and my friends wanted to do a photo walk in Nairobi. And what I did was I documented the process of actually getting a permit to actually do that. Cuz I remember I had to first write to the Kenya Film Is it Kenya Film Commission or Kenya Film and Licensing Board? Get a permit from them. That was I think 5,000 bob for the day. I had to go to the central police station, let them know this is what I want to do on this day. From then I had to go to City Hall to be able to now get another permit for now photography on the streets So, I just documented that that process. And credits the current Nairobi governor that once he came in

26:12 he actually removed that. He said, hey, it should not cost this much for somebody who just wants to take pictures of Nairobi to take pictures of Nairobi. So, he removed that and now people actually turn the streets into a studio. And yes, many people are actually being able to make a living out of it. Many young and upcoming photographers are being able to do that. So, for me I'm happy. I'm happy that there's been that transition. And one of the reasons why that has actually happened and now many people are actually doing photography is that equipment is now readily available. Cameras that many of us used for maybe like maybe when we were starting off maybe like 10 years ago or cameras that we used 10 years ago when we're upgrading we don't put them in the trash. We either gift someone or you sell it to them at a very

27:06
nominal
nominal nominal price. That is a way of giving somebody a stepping stone cuz the camera is good. It's just that it's not keeping up with what I want. Yes. But for that guy on the streets who just wants to take pictures of portraits of somebody it's a perfect camera. And these pictures most of them will just be viewed on the phone. So, they don't need like 50 megapixel cameras and all that. I mean like with something like 8 megapixel you're good. 8 megapixel a basic kit lens maybe a 50 mm or an 18-55 you're good. You'll be able to make amazing portraits with it. So, it's great that people who started ahead have actually given these upcoming guys a stepping stone. Plus also now there's the fact that you can easily hire gear. So, which we we did not have that privilege. So, you can easily hire the equipment that you need for that for the shoot that day and then and then you're good.

28:04 But something that's still not the gap that still exists is I'd say the economic uh passing the knowledge about how to run a photography business.
Mhm. Because now these guys would be just like, I have But it could also be where they are at. I just need money for today or I'm surviving just today and then tomorrow, you know, and still looking for your big break that will be able to give you some some money. But there hasn't been enough I'd say training for people who are in the creative business of photography.
Yes. People in the creative economy. Because our biggest raw material is our time. Mhm. You know, it's not other places like in manufacturing or the service industry. Uh People who want to create get financing for for what they do. I mean like the only thing that you have is your your camera. And you most likely will not it may not be of a good enough value to use as security for financing that you need. So, I think there's still that gap that

29:06 exists for people who actually want to do financing and also now training on how to run a proper photography business. If it's charging, how much What's what's the right way of actually charging? What model should you use when charging? How should you price your work? How should you price the royalties for for your work? Things about copyright. If it's like storing your data, which is the which are the best way of storing your data so that you just reduce the risks of you losing your data as a photographer [clears throat] because the content that you create is actually very valuable. I say the very same way say our parents for them things like land, you know, and property was actually a very big asset. for us. It's the digital creations that we have.

29:50
Yes. That is what can continue earning us royalties and income.
perpetuity Consider a photographer like Mohamed Amin. Whose images are in the CameraPix library? [clears throat] I mean, more more more passed on maybe like 30 or so years ago, but his work is still valuable today. And in fact, his work is even more valuable because he was able to create stuff that nobody else thought of of of of creating. So, how can we as photographers, as content creators, as creatives continue earning from what we have actually created long after we've stopped clicking the shutter button. That is something that I'm learning Mhm. and I know with time it will now become common knowledge.
Okay. Yeah. Okay. And where are you learning it? Learning from experience.

30:40
From experience.
From experience.
somewhere formal that up-and-coming photographers who maybe are willing to invest the resources in their personal education can go and learn this business of photography? I think uh I've been privileged to also because when we're starting out we started out with greats like Mutua Matheka, Emmanuel Jucha, and others. So, now we are able to sort of like network and say, "Hey, how are you doing this? What exactly How did you make this work?" Or you call somebody say, "I have these challenges. A client wants these kind of images. I'm not really sure how to charge. I've never done a project like this. What do you think?" And then somebody say, "Oh yeah, by the way, try and do this." We about 10 years ago had an had a photography collective called One Touch. Yes. And we had we learned a lot from each other. Uh the beauty about networking just

31:33 And And what we used to do is that we just used to meet up once or twice a week and just go out and shoot. And then after we shoot, we just sit down and present the work from each other. Work work to each other. Uh during that time we'd also even now share projects that we are actually working on. Or if you need an extra hand for maybe a wedding shooting over the weekend or a sports event or music event, you'd actually get somebody from within the collective to be able to partner with. Yeah. So, that helped a lot. Uh and I'd encourage even photographers nowadays. You know, like don't just shoot by yourself. Mhm. Team up.
Get into a community.
Get in community cuz there's a lot of learnings in that community. And for somebody like I'm available like even share my knowledge. I I live with this policy that I'd like to die empty. Mhm. Like there's no need for me all this knowledge and the experience that I've gathered over the years Unlike your standard guy who denies

32:28
[laughter]
I don't want to take my knowledge and experience to the grave.
Yeah. Like if there's an opportunity to go talk to college students somewhere or to a collective of photographers somewhere who want to know like, "Hey Muaf, how did you do this?" I'm very available. I'm readily available to actually go out and just talk to them and sort of like give them uh uh a stepping a a foot above to be able to now just get to the next level in their career.
Muaf, I think I think I must say that um your passion for your craft um comes out quite strongly. And even And it's so interesting for me who's followed you um and in in what you share with us on social media to hear the backstory behind some of those things. But you also do some things that are not really commercial, you know, that are just either you're capturing like I know you do these city walks. Yes. Um I I know I've commented on some of them on

33:24 on on on X and Instagram. And you walk around the city Yeah. or the changing face of the city.
Yeah. Just capturing how Nairobi or parts of Kenya Uh is emerging.
Yeah. Uh second, I know you share uh the you you have told us today that you have a great passion for the outdoors, yeah. And I know we share a passion for Nairobi National Park because I've met you Yeah. you know, on those 6:00 a.m. game drives
Yeah, game drives looking. But you're usually alone. I'm with my family and you are alone.
Yeah. So, maybe walk us through what is it that's driving you to capture these images Mhm. that are not commercial. No one's paying you for them.
Yeah.
[snorts]
But you go around uh wake up early in the morning and head to the Nairobi National Park on your own with your camera and take shots.

34:11
Mhm. Or you put together a group of photographer and walk through a section of Nairobi Mhm. to capture images and people and change and so on. So, what's driving you around that? What drives me is for Nairobi photo walks is the importance of documenting Nairobi cuz it's now changing so fast that it's very easy for us to forget what Eastleigh looked like 20 years ago or what Ngara looked like 5 years ago. I mean, there places neighborhoods that are changing so fast with so many high-rise things coming up. And new roads Uh trees being cut and all that. So, for me it's just documenting Nairobi uh presently. Like it it will not make news right now. But 10 years down the line, someone will be like, Oh. This is how it looked. This is how it looked like. All these the transformation that is that we've had. So, there's an importance of actually documenting that. Uh I'd actually like to team up with

35:09 other photographers and create a photo book on on Nairobi on the changing
later.
So, as we speak about royalties, I know that you've also had one or two intellectual property fights
[laughter]
A couple more. in your in your career. Yes. You know, where you have had to take on Yeah. uh people who are either using your images without paying for them or or or trying to to get away with doing so. Mhm. So, maybe we can speak to that a bit. Yeah. Uh how's the landscape from an intellectual property perspective for you as a creative photographer?
Mhm. And and what have you experienced in your journey? Okay. I I'd say there's a lack of knowledge and awareness about what your rights are as a photographer, as a copyright holder of every single image that you've created, whether there's a contract or not. The moment you click that shutter, you become a copyright holder of that image. Even if you've been sent by a client to shoot something, you are the copyright holder.

38:51 You can now get into an agreement with a client whereby you assign uh the moral rights of the image to to that to the person to the to the client who's paying you. But you still hold the the copyright unless now again by writing, you fully relinquish all your rights to the images Mhm. that you've shot. So, I've found some of my images, most of them are Nairobi images, images I've shot of Nairobi, being used by different entities, media, corporates Uh Uh in in their different platforms. If somebody's advertising, somebody's using as a background for news or a background for a show, you know. But I'm like, that's not right. Over the years, I've learned the best way to approach that is to get a lawyer to write to the person who's actually infringing on your copyright. Because when you write yourself, they they will take it lightly. But when you get a lawyer to actually

39:46 write the letter, they'll be like, "Ooh, this is actually something serious that I've done, and now even the legal profession have actually called an into it." So, I've had some successes, I've had some losses, I've had some some judgments and rulings from the courts that I've actually questioned. Uh and I've had some good good good judgments which have been favorable for for me. We've also had a couple of out-of-court settlements. Uh someone says, "Hey, sorry we did that. Can we, instead of going to court, just tell us how much, and then we settle, and then now Okay. And then Okay. So, you continue to fight your corner. Oh, yes. I'm currently in There's a case that has dragged on since 2020. Okay. Up to now. We're still in court No, I think I think that I I kudos for doing that because I think it's something that we need to do more as Kenyans.

40:36
Yeah. I think this old age-old don't fight it Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that was like what I found the thinking from the '70s and '80s. Uh you know, protect your name.
Yeah. Don't fight, or if you're employed and you're you're you're terminated uh what you think is unfair, no, you'll not be employable, or if you're photography, people won't be hiring you because they'll think you're litigious.
Yeah. I think that that just doesn't hold any water. And and kudos for for fighting your corner.
Let's come to the rally. The rally. Because [laughter] First of all, congratulations. Uh-huh. I saw you won a There was a World sports World sport photography photograph of the year. Photograph awards motor motorsport category. Okay. Yeah. So, you you you were awarded an award for the best photograph in the world in the motorsport category of the World Photography Awards.

41:32
Yes. Wow, that's quite an achievement.
you. So, tell us about your relation. I I guess we you've given us a snippet by going and shooting two rules and getting nothing. Yeah. So, but what's your your relationship and your passion for shooting motorsports has been quite long.
Yeah. Yeah. Uh it seems it was your first thing to try and shoot.
Yeah. And now you have become a world-famous motorsport photography. One, tell us how you got into it.
Mhm. And two, tell us um how it's going and how you earn from it. Okay. Yeah. So, I I I trace it back to when I was a young child creating the the toy cars using tin Yeah. or or wires.
Yes. So, motorsport has really been part of me growing up.

42:18
Yes. I remember my dad uh was still when we were young taking us to see rally cars on Thika Road back there back in the day. Uh we lived in Donholm, so the rally cars would be flagged off from KCC, would go down Mombasa Road, uh take Airport North Road, Outer Ring, go to join Thika Road, and then now go up to Central Kenya. Yes. So, we used to go just by the road at Outer Ring Road, uh between the junction of Outer Ring and Jogoo Road, and actually just see them passing, you know? So, it's something that we experienced when growing up. Uh so, and then I think also rallying was it's a place you'd just go. Back then, there was no need for accreditation or anything. You just rock up with your camera, and you take pictures of cars, a way of practicing, and it was it was good. But now, fast forward to 2021 when the WRC when the Safari Rally made it back to the WRC circuit, I

43:15 became one of the accredited accredited photographers uh to be able to shoot the rally, and I've received accreditation each year. So, the first the first year I got in, it was a paid gig. Okay. So, I was shooting for what is called the pool the press pool. So, we're just several photographers, we're together. You shoot whatever you shoot, you upload to a online drive, and all the newspapers have access to your images. Newspapers, blog writers, and everyone else has access to the images. Uh 2022 did the same, but up to now, I've never received my dues.
[laughter]
So, so the other years in my case, I could do my sending yourself like pay your own transport, uh pay your own accommodation, go shoot, and come back home. Post the images, and that's it. So, there's been no commercial value for me. But what that does is that it makes people aware there's a photographer out there who takes amazing action images. So, from that, I've been able to get other gigs. Someone will be like, "Oh,

44:19 yeah. Oh, yeah. This is the guy who shot the rally images. So, yeah, I think he'll be good for this event." I've been able to shoot the Absa Kipkeino Classic for 2 years consecutively, again paid paid gigs. Uh and other ways of just actually just having your name being mentioned in rooms where you're not. Cuz somebody will be like, "Oh, yeah, there's this guy called Mwarv. Is he on Instagram? Oh, that's my name. Oh, he doesn't shoot only rally. He also shoots these other things. Well, let's call him up. Let's send him an email." You know? So, it's a way of getting your name out there.
[snorts]
So, for the awards, uh there's actually a friend of mine called Teddy who I think at a meeting we had for photographies photographers, he said, "Hey, guys, there's these awards happening. You guys should actually try and enter, you know, like submit your entries." So, that's what I did. I submitted three images, and one of them is what now got me the gold.

45:13
Congratulations on that. Uh thank you. But more over and above the rally and you also document Can I call them national events or events of national importance? I know you've been quite instrumental in documenting the the the deaths of our past presidents.
funerals. State funerals of You did it for Mwai Kibaki. You did it for Daniel Moi. Daniel Arap Moi, and you also did it for Raila Odinga. Raila Odinga.
Yeah. So, again, what what drives you to do this? The beauty about such such projects is number one, I don't have a client. Mhm. [clears throat] So, I'm not
Just a Kenyan. Yeah, I'm not having to shoot to a certain brief. Mhm. This is me now flexing my creativity. I'm like, okay, fine, there's this story, there's there's this thing that's happening. How can I best document it? So, I'm pushing myself, I'm challenging myself creatively. That's the beauty about it. And then, not having to shoot by a certain time or deliver your images by a certain time. That also helps cuz it reduces the

46:21 pressure of like because if you're shooting for say news and an event like that, they want images as the event is ongoing. But if I'm shooting for myself, hey, I'll take as long as I want to edit these images, and then post when I'm ready. That's the beauty about it. And that there's actually specifically the I believe it was the Mwai Kibaki state funeral. That project actually that self kujituma project
Yes. I I just inspired myself to go shoot, got me another project to go shoot a a medical uh medical research facilities in four different African countries.
Wow. And it's because I included it as part of my portfolio. Like when the client says, "Send us a portfolio. Let's see what you've done." And they're like, "Eh, this guy has even shot a state funeral. This must be of some serious

47:17
[laughter]
This must be some serious Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so it's actually the client who confessed to me like, "Hey, we saw this guy has even shot we've even shot a state funeral. You you're a cut above the other guys. Other guys have done yeah, a lot of documentary work here here, but you've actually gone ahead to shoot something." In fact, they thought it was the government had contracted me to actually shoot it. Yet, it wasn't the case.
So, that helps. Just a way of getting your word out there. And remember that thing of you're only as good as your last project? So, even for that one, I have to give it my best. I don't shoot it shoot it a couple of notches below in terms of quality. I'm like, it has to be still at 100% because that is what somebody will see and make the decision on whether to give you the project or or not. Yeah.

48:08
Mwarv, I see a um a thread
Mhm. of continuous self-improvement. Mwarv, investment investment in yourself in terms of learning, of challenging yourself consistently from a creative perspective.
Mhm. Um is that correct? Is that something that is part and parcel of you because you have several, as you call them, kujituma projects. You know, that you're not getting paid. Mhm. But you go and do out of the passion for your craft.
Yeah. And I guess the learnings that you'll get from pushing yourself creatively.
Yeah. Yeah. Um how what message would you have for younger photographers in that regard? Because, you know, there there's also another school of thought that man, if there's no money on the table, I won't take it out of my camera out of the bag, you know? And so, what do they lose out by not adopting a a mantra of continuous improvement? I think the biggest loss is to self. Because for us who are in this craft industry, the more you do something, the

49:13 better you become at it. Yes. Like a chef will not be a chef the same chef he was last year because he's also tried out new things uh and been able to improve on things that he was doing last year. The same with with with with us in the creative industry. The more you just go out and shoot, uh the better you become at it. The better you also the more you even learn I'd say over 90% of the photographers in Kenya have not been trained, have not received any formal training in what they do. It's just picking up a camera, going and shoot, and learning from your mistakes. The more mistakes you make, the more learnings you have. I remember in 2013 September we did a 16-day road trip with One Touch. And we went from Kenya into Uganda, into Rwanda, into Burundi, driving and coming back just shoot. Shooting and just documenting life on the streets and life in the different

50:09 East African countries. Uh the following year in 2014, I received an email from a client saying we're looking for a photographer to go to Uganda to document life on the streets of Uganda between this highway and this highway, between this border crossing and this border crossing. Uh is that something that you can do? And voila. I had images that had shot the previous year of the very same places I was being sent to. So, I had that experience. Could you because of Kujituma You landed there with familiarity.
Yes. And I can disclose I got over $20,000 for that project. And it's because now I had the experience because I'd done it before with friends and I knew the roads and I knew what is needed between here and here cuz you're also now planning the itinerary yourself. You know, from here to here the road is not good so I cannot say I will travel maybe like for 5 hours. I need to give it maybe a bit longer. So, that's Kujituma.

51:09 Please, man. Just just do it.
There's benefits.
Just do it. Just do it. Now, as we wrap up, let's speak about a bit about the future. Yeah, and before we started shooting this broadcast episode, we were talking about how you're learning to work through associates
Yes. for Click Picture Works Africa. Maybe tell us a bit about that journey and and what it is where you're playing more of a director role than being the one behind the camera. One, what inspired you to do that? And two, how are you seeing it how how do you see yourself continuing to grow in that space where you're working through others? Yeah. So, for the longest time I've actually shot and edited by myself. Uh and many times that's been because of

51:58 the maybe like project limitations. Uh sometimes you're going to places where the security situation is a bit sensitive and so the client wants minimum risk so they just want to send one person. Uh I remember we did get to shoot I did get to shoot uh and edit a documentary in Mali. And Mali had just undergone two coups so the situation was still a bit dicey in terms of security. So, the client could actually afford only one person to go. And because I'm conversant with both photograph and videography, I was chosen and I went and shot. But now I'm getting to a point where I feel there's a way I can also give opportunities to young guys to learn from the experience. They may have received their formal training from school but nothing beats experience on the ground. Whatever you've learned in theory, now you're putting it into practice. So, I've been able to team up with a company called Film Aid Kenya

52:54 which was started by a friend of mine called Ken and Film Aid Kenya has been offering trainings across the country for people in photography and videography.
Okay. So, I now have access to the graduates of Film Aid Kenya and we're able to actually now go out and shoot together. And the beauty about it is that I don't have to worry about the technical things anymore. I don't have to worry about F stops and ISOs and apertures and all that anymore because they already had the training. So, what I do is just direct. Say, get me this shot, get me this shot, get me this shot. And that even gives more value to my clients because now we have young younger more energized guys able to do it and things are now seen from a different perspective. It's not only my perspective that is in it, it is my perspective plus the plus plus the perspective of these teams that I'm actually getting to to work with. So, that's that has helped you a lot cuz now that allows me uh I don't have to be at my desk doing the post-production work

53:56 on projects. Uh I don't have to be the one behind the camera doing the filming. I'm able to have a more relaxed relaxed role. I'm also now able to do more of my passion projects. Okay. So, if it's say going and spending a week in Naivasha shooting the rally, I'm able to do that. And it's not that at the end of the day I'm trying to deliver on some client work which I used to have to do because you know, client work does not stop when you're shooting the rally. True. But now I have a team that's actually
Excellent. doing the client fulfillment uh and I'm out there being able to still now push the Moaf brand and being able to now document things that I'm passionate about.
I mean, fabulous. And a fabulous transition for me, Cecil. Thank you. So, Moaf, thank you very much for being our 60th guest on the African Doer podcast. It's been a fabulous fabulous conversation. I think I'll now give you a chance to just speak to the audience and tell them where they can find Click Click Picture Works Africa Limited and where your personal handles. If there's anyone out there who doesn't yet know

54:58 you or wants to follow you, where can they find you? Okay. So, for Click, the company click.co.ke, that's c l i c k .co.ke. We have a very active blog. It's moaf, m w a r v .click.co.ke. And on social media, it's Moaf. Just look for Moaf, m w a r v. Excellent. Ladies and gentlemen, first of all, allow me to take this opportunity to thank you all for being with us all through these 60 episodes. It's no mean feat to shoot 60 episodes. 60 stories of African entrepreneurs executing excellently. Excellent Africans executing excellently. It was a great privilege to have Moaf as our 60th guest and we look forward to having you with us in future episodes. Asanteni sana.