Farayi Ziswa — transcript

BTL

This transcript is generated automatically by YouTube and has not been checked by a person. It misspells names and mishears words, particularly around Kenyan English and company names, so read it as a guide to the conversation rather than a quotable record. Each timestamp opens the video at that moment.

0:05 Greetings ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the African Drew podcast. Uh um this is episode 48 and we are quite privileged today to have with us Mr. Farai Zizwa. H Faray is our first I would say Panaffrican guest. um he's Zimbabwean by origin but has had quite a rich career in um our region in Kenya in in Tanzania in Uganda and I think his current venture is in Tanzania. So we get a chance to explore and have a discussion about things African by an African Zimbabwean who uh saw it fit to first come into Kenya professionally and then also entrepreneur and invest his knowledge and time and resources in building a business in Kenya and now doing the same thing in Tanzania. Far, welcome to the African Blue podcast.

0:54
Thank you so so much. I really appreciate uh the opportunity to be here.
Excellent. So far I let let's kick off with understanding you and your background. Yeah. Um and your corporate background early days and what you saw um in this space. Uh first how your corporate um because I think this speaks to many people of African descent who are working for multinational corporates.
How what did you see there that pushed you? what was it you were doing in a corporate setting and how did that transition you into uh exploring entrepreneurship in an African context?
Yeah. Um so I my career really started with Uni Livver.
Mhm.
And uh after I had uh qualified for my degrees in um in in the UK.

1:46
Yeah.
Uh I had an MBA in finance and I was a finance person. Um I returned to Zimbabwe and uh I started operating in Zimbabwe as a treasury person. Uh in fact I started as a management trainee and then I ended up in management um for uh the treasury business. But with the success that I had in treasury, I um got recruited into sales. It was an awkward move,
but uh it it the transition actually was more because sales is really more of a relationship world than anything. And uh so I moved into sales and it was the early days of uh sales when we were talking about things like category management, channel management, you know, it was the new era of selling. So I was taken all over the world training in different ways and that training that I got got me to understand modern trade

2:50 and how to deal with modern trade and then also equally to understand uh informal trade
and we started building models
and that's when I started being sent around the world around Africa was sent around the world for training but across South Africa. I started going and [clears throat] participating in some activities and my first trip to Kenya was with Uni Liva. Um it wasn't necessarily with informal trade but it was with uh Uchumi to help to consolidate how Uchumi was operating and things like that. Um and with that exercise I started appreciating how informal trade was quite a dominant business.
[snorts]
um it was the key you know channel of retailing for uh businesses across um Africa. Um and in doing in being in that industry I started traveling, seeing people, meeting people, meeting retailers, learning how things work. And when I came to the end of my career with Unilver, um I went initially to the Middle East. I did a bit of a stint there and I [clears throat] honed in my exercises of learning how to use systems and how

4:12 systems can actually operate in informal markets. [clears throat]
Um the moment that was done uh the moment that stint was over about 2010 um I had the opportunity to look at coming to Africa and I looked at all the dynamics and really Kenya ticked all the boxes. M
and a series of um opportunities came within that to [clears throat] look at Kenya as an opportunity itself for investing.
Okay. [clears throat]
And uh so when I came u I remember it was um really an interesting world because Kenya was really starting to transition.
Where are we in time this time?
This is about 2010. Okay.
2010. Mhm.
Kenya at that time most of the key accounts were you know you had Nakumat you had Uchumi um I think there was

5:09
Tuskis
but most of the others were quite insignificant at the time but majority of trade was informal.
Okay. And my expertise, my learning had all taught me that there was a better way of doing things. And the big corporates knew how to do it. You know, if you look at Coca-Cola, Nestle, Unilver, all these big multinationals, they knew how to get into the informal trade. So maybe before maybe if you'll allow me to stop you there
and ask you uh to for the for for the for the purpose of the audience. Yeah.
Who may not be hardcore salespeople. Maybe some [clears throat] of them will be
but let's let's go through let's quickly define and maybe you can help us define you know the difference between what in a sales function what modern trade is and what general trade is.

6:09
Yeah. so that we can see those clear definitions because I I based on where the conversation is going I think this is going to be quite a key part of our conversation today. So maybe just help and maybe do it from the lens of a multinational what how does a multinational like you leave where you spent a lot of time
look at what modern trade and general trade and define those two things for for a layman to understand them. So we we tended at that point to look at modern trade as the conglomerate chain stores.
So uh a chain store where you can deliver to ideally one or at least you are delivering to multiple points but you've got a central head office that you are dealing with.
And in many cases you had all your product ranges going into that specific store. You had a strategy for merchandising,

7:06
you had a strategy for visibility, you had a strategy for volumes.
Um, and we normally would set parameters that would be for the entire year that we would negotiate with that client. So, it's one client, but you're dealing with multiple outlets, 30, 40, sometimes like in today's world, you're talking of NAS in Kenya, um, up to about 60, 70 stores,
100 actually. 100 [clears throat]
100 103 I think 104. Yeah. So you're talking to one one specific head office but all your specific channel requirements all your specific requirements are discussed under one
whereas if you go to what I call the informal trade many people have got different names but um informal trade is where you've got your mamoggas you've got your your kiosks you've got your dookas you've got all these independent traders tabletops And each independent person most in like when I came most if not all would buy buy their product from a wholesaler.

8:15
And [clears throat] when they buy from a wholesaler um their dependency on that wholesaler is total. They literally have to go there whatever the wholesaler has they buy they bring it in. And that was probably the the challenge that informal traders have. They were largely an ignored industry. And yet if you think about it, they are probably 90% of African business. But they totally ignored because they were at that time totally ignored and big corporations had started to notice them [clears throat] and had started to build structures to get to them. Um because if you think of doing business with a wholesaler, you're just you're supplying that one wholesaler for
Kario Bankangi. And that wholesaler that you supply once you supply him,

9:04
you know, you don't know where your product goes.
Yes.
You don't know who bought it,
what they used it for.
Um so you lose track of your product and big corporations started saying we need to know what's going on. M
so um my lessons in corporate were to learn how to now um get to the point where we can bypass the wholesaler
or use the wholesaler as a partner but get information of what's going on at the retail level.
And as we know what's happening at the retail level, we've got a clearer picture of what's happening at the
consumer level as well. Okay. But our our focus was how do we get to know what's happening at the retail level and that was 2010 and that conversion became visible in the latter years. Today if you go to

9:58
any market you you find so much more product variety in a kiosk,
so much more variety of colors, products, um product ranges. the prices have all gone down
because now you don't have you've got people controlling the prices
um and it's become easier to find product and that was I would say that morphing season of about 2010 to about now is that when we saw the emergence of what became known as the Kadogo economy yes
where people started multinationals started to package their their their items in in in sizes that were more palatable for smaller consumers.
And we saw the drinking chocolate have a smaller, you know, Nestle with Nest Cafe for their coffee have the small sache oneoff.

10:52
Um, Blue Band also had the smaller sache in. Is that was that the thinking behind that?
That is part of the thinking. Yeah.
That is actually uh I was part of u some specific rollouts in Kenya. Um, I know the Nest Cafe was definitely one of our rollouts. Um, we also did an unusual one with the what were they called? With the baby pads,
um, diapers.
Yes.
Uh, we did the Kadogo.
Yes.
Diaper.
Um,
and these were very successful and they were piloted in Kenya. And then having been piloted in Kenya, they've been the success of that was rolled out into multi- countries across um uh West Africa and East Africa. Um a little bit less in southern Africa um where the consumer is slightly different and the retail market is slightly different.

11:53
But we had a very big success in East Africa and West Africa. Okay.
Um with those rollouts. So the Kado packs um the the serving packages for product became something that we just started pushing um quite significantly in that time. So [clears throat] I think that's very interesting. That's a very interesting conversation because you have this large this must be a bit counterintuitive for some of the large multinationals because this now what you have described should actually be is the ultimate local contextualization.
Yeah. Because let's take uni liver. Uni liver is a large you know in in more mature markets. Um I'm not I don't really like that term but it exists so let's use it in more mature markets from a retail perspective

12:50
they design product sizes they probably never have to go to kadogo anything you know [clears throat]
so so does this in your eyes because I know you you took this a step further even in terms of your business interest does this define for you how
to react to meet a market where it is Yeah.
As opposed to where you want it to be. Is that a fair comment?
The key thing and I agree with what you just said, but if if you look at what is happening in the market today,
um the consumer needs some product
and if I go to Kako or if I go to Kawangare
and I walk the market, I've got different types of consumers in Karaako. I've got people that are very high-end. They're very prepared to buy a very big pack [clears throat]

13:42
and consume that
right of diapers. But at the same time, if you take a closer look,
you will find a person who insists that they want one diaper.
And so the pack has to be torn open
and one diaper is pulled out
and handed to the customer. M now our observation in that was how are we going to cater for this one person who wants that one diaper.
The big corporations knew this was happening but didn't seem to really make any strides to change that
because they are looking at the mathematics of it.
To do a single pack is more expensive than to do a a big bundle pack. packing 36 in a in a unit
is more economical than packing a single pack.
So, it wasn't in their priority list to put um uh to put single pack, you know, units. But in my u organization that I had founded uh in 2010, we approached a can I say probably number three customer at the time or number three um brand in in at the time. Yeah.

14:58
And we made a proposal and we said, "Look, this is what people are doing." And we went with them to the market and we showed them and it was an international brand, but they were not dominant in the country. [snorts] And we said, "This is what people are doing. They're opening and they're tearing and you know this customers, this retailer has been handling money and other products. Their hands are dirty. They're putting their hand into this diaper. You can see the fingerprint." and he hands this diaper to a child to a mother who now has to go and put that diaper onto their child. It was just an accepted thing, but it was not an ideal thing.
Okay.
And it became an innovation that said, well, why don't we actually change the dynamic? Let's make a single back.

15:47
Yes.
And make it work for the consumer.
Okay.
So, we went through the innovations. We went through the numbers. Um, we found reasons why the product would be better in single packs.
You know, it wasn't now about just the economic value. It was now about also the dynamics. For example, when a mom changes her diaper,
where does she throw the diaper?
The plastic became the the container
of that single diaper.
Of the single diaper. We found many other things to say about that
and um the execution we did was for 2 years maybe three
um and that client actually moved from in the informal trade moved from being probably the number three to the number one distributor. So that that story that you have told us about how you changed the fortunes of that kind client for that particular product. Yeah. Um I think it's a great uh introduction to BTL consulting. Yeah. And I think BTL stands for below the line.

16:57
Yes.
So BTL consulting is your outfit.
Yes.
And uh based on that example that you have just given uh us to given us
it [clears throat] bridges the gap between how the market is below the line
for multinational corporates any businesses that want to service that market from a sales perspective. Is that a fair definition?
Yeah, we we we look at it as um you've got two types of
can I call it marketing?
So, you've got above the line which talks to the masses. You know, you can put a billboard up. You can do a radio ad.
Everyone will see the advert. Everyone will hear the advert. Um but if if you do below the line, you're dealing with the consumer at the point where they're actually going to buy the product.

17:47
Okay? and you're you're influencing that moment of decision making.
So, you know, they might have seen an advertisement for a drink,
but that doesn't mean they're going to buy the drink when they get to the point. You know, there's going to be
the consideration of the price.
Yeah.
There's going to be, oh, look at that other one. You know, there's a green drink and there's a blue drink. Oh, that blue drink looks better today. Um maybe on that day I'm feeling a little you know different about drinking a fizzy. I would rather drink water.
Yes.
So that below the line is where you're influencing a person at the last moment.
And that's really what what our business was doing. It was saying let's go to that informal trade to that kiosk to that dooka to that tabletop. what can we do to get our client's product to be more visible and to be more appealing for that exact moment when it's needed.

18:47
And you know when you go to certain places um you know I'll say Kangari again
but when you go to Kongari there are certain places where people buy just for that one meal that one tomato that one onion
that one teaspoon of cooking oil or
or tablespoon of cooking oil or just a little sache of salt. You want to make sure that that thing is right there at the time that they need it. And then what you're asking for is the volume.
You want the critical mass
because if that area, if that little shop has 20 customers
multiplied by let's say 200
kiosks,
that suddenly becomes a multiplication. That's where your volume comes from. M um so the mathematics the economics is really where will I get the volume and will I get enough volume to make it worth it for the business. So that's not very obvious yet you decide to build your business around that. So tell us a bit about the thinking about that and how the journey of running this uh BTL consulting has been and some of

19:58 the insights you've garnered as a result of that.
Yeah, it wasn't easy. Um when we came we thought my first inclination was this is going to be excellent for all the small you know number two number three suppliers and manufacturers
but all of them looked at us as just another marketing ploy
and so it was quite difficult. um we had to partner with um another agency that was coming into the country but I would like to think that they were slightly bigger than they thought you know for them it was just economically not making sense for them they kept on thinking the volumes were not going to be big enough etc. And I was friends with the CEO and I said to him, listen, for me the volumes you're talking about are very good

20:58 and economically my business is still small. I can manage that expense whereas you probably it's too dynamic for you. So I had to partner with this client and in partnering with them I then ended up doing the execution [clears throat]
and that opened the door. that opened the door for us. We were actually recognized by several people as the executors, right? Um even though at the end of the day by contract, we were not really,
we had a partner who was doing it.
And as we progressed, we saw more multinationals coming to us, okay,
and asking us to execute with them. So we had sweet sweet companies and chocolate c companies and um different other organizations coming to us and saying listen we've seen what you're doing we've seen you in the market we've seen you walking around let's work together let's let's let's let's do some executions [snorts] and uh that was a pure godsend for us because for the next five years we were booming

22:11
but The challenge with working with big corporations is they're learning.
They're not necessarily running with you.
They're they're just learning and they're putting their stuff among your stuff
and they're picking up your ideas. So all the execution ideas that I was executing, they were watching.
So after about five years, one by one, you know, you start seeing them, oh, no, no,
we've got this.
We've got this. We can we can we can sell ourselves. Mhm.
So one by one they start dropping out and um we had a a huge dropout rate um in about 20 25 to about 2028
is that 20 2015 to 2018.
Yeah.
We had a big dropout.
Um and we had to pivot as an organization. We realized nope this is not working. um we already were working with systems but we started saying listen we let's let's put more of our attention not on the dynamic of selling on behalf of clients but let's put our dynamic more on the systems and the the data and um I know we talk big data now but those days we were doing big data in in a different way

23:24
so we were we were collecting lots and lots of uh data points we had our guys going and selling and each time they would input on a phone.
And uh we started saying let's outsource that and let's outsource the information and let's let's let's use the information that we're getting to create one giant supermarket.
Mhm.
And use that data to go to the clients and say, you know, these [clears throat] are the alerts. This is what's happening. This is what's happening. Um so that pivot we did was was a difficult one. We went from employing at at one point up to about 200 different people, 200 youths um at a time to employing anything less than 30 employees uh 30 salespeople. Um and then we started getting more uh can I call it IT driven data driven people.

24:26 Mhm.
Um, so there was pivoting we had to do. Um, and and and moving from very high workforce to very low workforce was terrible on cash flow. Um, it's it's it's it's one of those things where you as an entrepreneur, I think that was probably the lowest point of entrepreneurship because you don't want to be um especially for me um I'm I'm I'm a foreigner. I'm running a business. I'm employing so many youths.
Yeah.
Most of these guys have trained them in different ways. I think at that point we had registered almost 2,000 different people coming in and out of the business. Um, you don't want to start having HR issues and things like that. It just doesn't work well.
So, we were working very hard to make sure that we had it right. But that really had a bad impact on cash flow. It had an impact on the quality of our service. Um and and the pivot was so crucial. Um and and that brought a totally new dynamic, a new type of clientele. Um you know, today we see all these venture capital organizations that are running a number of them. We actually played a part

25:50
in for them.
How so?
Um give an example of copia. Yes. Unfortunately, it's shut down. Um but at the time uh that's the time I met the copia team
and we worked with them to design the model
of how copia would work.
Um and and we walked the market with them cuz theirs was to look at rural distribution.
Yes.
Again informal.
Um so we were were going to the market. We were looking at what the market looked like. We were designing what we knew we we understood what they wanted but question is is it is it something that can work for rollout.
Okay.
Um can it be scaled? So we test this, we see how it works, we test something else, we see how it works, we go back to original, we test something else until we had a fine product that actually could work for the organization. based on what you'd say as I hear what you're saying I I can't help but think that that side of the market what you call below the line yeah the or the informal trade

27:06
h despite all the strides that has been have been made uh they are up against modern trade and one would argue that modern trade is getting all all the attention
and hence all the resources all the learning yet we say that Africa is largely an informal trade market.
So based on your experience and your insights and your entrepreneurial experience would you
say and the fact that in entrepreneurship
a lot is learned from mistakes.
Yeah.
You know there's a lot of uh trial and error you know you try you fail you fail fast and then you you move on and you pivot and you and you make the changes. Would you say that more entities led by Africans and I and I and I say that because of the contextual issue need to understand the informal trade better. Is that a fair comment?

28:02
I think it's a very fair comment
but also I would marry it with uh the fact that your despite the complexity of it in the end if you crack it the economics are right.
Yeah. I think uh the Telos have showed us that
you know that they can drop I I recall the earlier days of mobile telephon you know when we um I once upon a time Safariccom's lowest denomination of scratch card for for credit was 500 B the lowest
and then they h havedved that to 250 and then they went down to 50 shillings and now they even have 20 shillings you know you can get a credit worth 20 shillings and then they have seen the explosion that this
so do you think in other segments of the market this is an imperative

28:51
I have seen organizations that have tried to go to mo you know modern trade we we hype it a bit too much
it it's very important
no doubt about it in Kenya you know depending how you inquire but majority of people would agree that modern trade is about 40% across Kenya
which is very high which is quite high um if you go to other countries Tanzania
um and other sort of further up you go um subsaharan Africa it's like 90% informal trade
10% modern trade
yes
um you would you would expect that at 40% we would not give it that much attention
but you would find most organizations would put 80% of their sales
resources
and the resources into the modern trade they will spend all their money looking after that modern modern retail and then they just go and dump product at the wholesale

29:53
and and and and [clears throat] wing it.
Um but those that have actually taken the moment to say, "Hey, listen, let's disc I've I've seen drinks companies take on Coca-Cola and actually win." And how do they win? They've gone and they've said let's just take a closer look at this general trade this informal trade and they've gone and then they've identified you know in Nairobi probably about 150,000 retail outlets and they say right let's go to those 150,000 if I can get 2,000 per week shillings of just them holding my stock and selling my stock one I've got them holding my stock and selling so I've product visibility. Two, I actually have someone triing. Three, I actually now have an opportunity to speak about my product and that person can speak for my product.

30:51
And that's how certain organizations have actually won. There has been far too little attention given to it and you know the informal trade big organizations can afford to put a bit of R&D into it but I'll be fair with it they don't put that much in comparison to how much they put into modern
modern trade um just those big displays you see in modern trade you're paying how much money are you paying for that just to have the display across 100 plus outlets, but all you need is a strip a strip course and uh put it into every single kiosk, 150 kiosks, and you're done. 150 or 100,000 kiosks, and you're done, you know, and that little strip costs, you know, 5,000 shillings or so or even less um just to produce. So we

31:49 have massive opportunities that are inherent in the informal trade and they are generally as you said um ignored um
and that's where BTL has succeeded you know as much as we pivoted today we don't do the selling on behalf of clients today we actually speak to clients we we we we do executive coaching we do um analysis and and we provide the software and applications that can be used to track what's happening in the informal trade. And so you can have 10,000 outlets and it becomes one supermarket where you can see everything in one in one in one in one drop.
Um and it's the same thing that we did when we helped and assisted uh the venture capital companies. It was about let's build the systems. So number one, let's create a model. But most important, have a system. Have the system and see what's happening. Create one marketplace

32:55
out of the system of the out of the outlets. The only challenge I I have with the entire thing is that it's so you know Africa is so disenfr so broken up.
So
fragmented
fragmented
so um nobody has come to that point where they've said let's combine it. Let's combine our data.
Everyone's going and building a system. Everyone's going and building databases and everyone's going to the same outlet. So one kiosk you know mama mamaog's shop
is getting 20 people visiting a day and those 20 people come with a different apps
and they input information and it's the same customer and we have not reached that point where we can say ah let's make them one. How do you how do you reach that point because it seems like a a pretty important point to reach.

33:52
It's a very important point.
Yeah. And if we have replication of of efforts
by 20 different outlets is what is it? What is the missing link? Is it is it that there's someone sitting in in in you know Silicon Valley and determining what the problem is on this on this side or what what is the problem? It's it's it's just that everyone is focused on their product.
Mhm. So you know if you're selling drinks, you're focused on your drinks. If you're selling chocolate, you're focused on your chocolates. Nobody the the the the venture capital organizations like Copia that came in would would come in and come from the retailer perspective
and they did some good work. The challenge that we have with those guys going into the retail space um is that they're only focused on the retail space and they don't really think too much about managing the space of uh the suppliers and the space of data sharing equally. They just don't share. They they they have their data about what's happening in the retail. They will not share. M

35:06
the guys who are manufacturing know their data about what's happening on the supply ending but they're not sharing.
So you got retailer, you got manufacturer and then you've got the guys in the middle who do distribution. They're also coming up with apps as well and they're keeping their data. Everyone's looking after themsel everyone's looking after.
So are we are we suffering? [laughter] I'm I'm smiling because I had a chat with a couple of years ago. Yeah. I I had a chat with someone who's in insurance.
Yeah.
Motor vehicle insurance to to to be specific. And what you're saying is exactly what they are saying.
Says one of the biggest challenges with motor vehicle insurance in Kenya is uh failure for the insurance companies as a collective to share some data. Yeah.

36:04
Among themselves. And so what happens if I am someone with fraudulent intent?
Yeah.
So I I I I habitual put up a filer of fraudulent claims. Yeah.
Because of that lack of sharing of data, I just hope insurance companies.
Yeah. So I'm here I'm with this one for 2 years and then I hope to this one for another two years and they're enough
because everyone's small. So what do these we we are now living in an age we hear data is the new oil. Yeah. So what does a body is BTL that body for example that that can consolidate this data from the various and repackage it in a way that is beneficial to what who should it be is if it was BTL
yeah [laughter] but in in in a perfect world who should be

37:05
in a perfect world um
a or who who should it be
you know I mean the thing is this is an Africa Yes,
this is an actual Africa problem. I mean, you can imagine how many retail outlets there are in Nigeria,
in Ghana,
um, let alone Tanzania, Kenya, there's so many.
And the thing is, the person who shall control that central hub, if you would call it that,
um, really controls all retail. They're the master retailer.
Yeah. They're bigger than any of these uh modern trades. I mean the biggest modern um trader is is um Shopright if I'm not mistaken.
Yes,
they would be bigger than Shopright by miles.
The the the the the challenge that is there is how to execute, how to get synergy because you're going to have government wanting to also have a peace. M

38:07
you're going to have city councils saying, "Yeah, we want to know where they are, what they're doing, how much revenue they're making."
Because if you look at currently all the retail stores, all the mamoggas that are out there, right? Majority of them, all they pay is just a kido council tax
on a monthly basis,
right? People would [clears throat] love to know how much they actually make,
right? M
and if you knew how much they actually made, you would you would then tax them or you would So are you going to have those guys accepting that
that they get now into the tax regimes and whatnot.
So there's a bit of teaching, there's a bit of coaching, there's a bit of support that needs to be given. Um I believe that there is a model that can be built that can unify all the manufacturers, all the distributors, all the uh uh retailers themselves into one.

39:04
There is a model that can can do that. The question is not necessarily um a body to do it but the infrastructure
and the and and and and the because informal informal trade one thing you learn very quickly is they really think the same
you know in all that informality there's actually it's I can call it like a river it it it flows one direction yeah so if if you make inform formal if you recognize that informal trade operates under one premise which is everyone wants to make a profit everyone wants to make a living and how do you make a living I make a living out of profit so if everyone can make something out of some out of that model
it will work if you go in and you've got your idea which is the current model where manufacturer comes in and says I've got my product I would like you to buy my product, the manufacturer is thinking about their product and their range. They don't care about the competitor. In fact, they would prefer to kill the competitor.

40:13
Um, if if if you look at the retail end, they're saying, "Well, I've got my product here. I would like to buy more product. I would like more variety. I'd like this and I would like that. But I don't want to have to pay for an app. Why must I pay for an app? It's just another expense. Just more money out of my pocket, you know? So, if I'm a supermarket, yes, I might want to have an app because I want to control the amount of stock I have. But if I'm a kiosk, why would I want an app? You know, it's going to just go into my bottom line. So, no, I'm not going to do that. [snorts] Um, and if you're a distributor, you want to go out as much as possible. You want to have as much product as you can. And basically, you're a wholesaler. M

40:58
you're just trying to get So everyone has got this me me scenario.
Should should we then divorce the owner of the app from the seller of the goods?
There's there there will have to be compromises made.
Okay. By everyone
profitable by everyone.
By everyone
profitable compromises.
Yeah.
Yeah. There will have to be compromises made.
Okay.
But it is very feasible. And you then say let's put in a partner which is now obviously your government now says hey we also enjoin into this one
again if if it's feasible you know if if everyone comes in with the right notion that we're not out to make you know I don't want to just tax you and take your money
I want to actually come in and partner with you in the informal trade

41:50
everyone wins because actually the revenue is actually there
yes
it's just it's just nobody will want fragmented.
It's just fragmented. Extremely fragmented.
Okay.
Yeah.
No, you you you [laughter] sound like um based on my understanding of this, I think it's it's it's extraordinarily complex,
but I think it's a worthy challenge.
It
to be taken up because the upside really is a massive upside. Yeah. Um and and it would be great to see that challenge. Maybe this podcast is the one which will inspire someone. Some someone will hear and be triggered and say this is a challenge I'm going to take up.
I think so. Um because
we talk of this AI and all these things. Um

42:36
AI didn't exist when people were doing algorithms on Excel and and using all these apps.
Yes.
But they were producing data that today you can see being produced within minutes by AI. Agree.
Yeah. We would take months to produce it. But we were we were seeing the data. Yes.
So there is intrinsic information that shows
that all this is possible.
It's probably the right time
with with AI being a compliment to it. It's probably the right time to take on this challenge.
Yeah, absolutely.
But um let let's let's pivot and and speak to you're now based in Tanzania. Uh you happen to be in Kenya just passing by. Yeah.
But you're in Tanzania day today.
And let's speak a bit about my paper karati. Yeah.

43:22
So what is my paper karat the current BTL is still there?
BTL is still operating
but but but the current venture that you run what what is it about?
So I I I had a a a moment where I was as an I've always loved entrepreneurship.
I've I've enjoyed I grew up I started um my my my mom used to always drag me along to all her things where she was doing wherever we went. Um from about 13 I was running administration for our family farm in Zimbabwe and things like that.
Um so I always had a love for farming more than anything else. And even in Kenya, I invested in um in in a business called Farm Shop. And the model of Farmop um unfortunately it it it didn't come to uh it [clears throat] ended up closing.

44:16
But the model of farm shop is the model we also did in Copia and unfortunately that didn't go so well.
But I always still have that that passion for for farming. And uh while I was uh in Tanzania um I came upon I just saw how much trash was just lying around. You know there's just rubbish and there's just agricultural waste being thrown everywhere. Even in Kenya you see it. PE you go to Kako markets or any of those places, you just see agricultural waste thrown on the wayside and you're thinking, geez, you don't have a plan. I saw that in Tanzania and um I came up with an idea with a colleague and my wife and we were just talking and saying this waste is just too much. And this colleague, excellent guy, um he he he already was doing he had already some 30 years of um experience in converting waste into um waste into paper.

45:24
Yes.
So and he he was very good at doing it with communities. So he would go to women's groups, church groups, and he would take their product. Uh he he would ask them to bring jeans, clothes, um any waste, jeans, clothes, um banana leaves, um maze cobs, grass, and he would teach them how to make paper out of them. So I said to him, well, let's um let's try this. So we looked at Tanzania and um we realized that the amount of waste that was there was pretty interesting for an opportunity. And we went and we tested we actually went to um the region of Tanga and we um tested the idea of making paper out of Cisil waste. It was just thrown around. you know, people makes and they the the rubbish that comes from it, they just throw it aside and it's an ISO. It's everywhere.

46:26
So, we just said, let's just take some, try and make paper. And uh we did the pilot this year. Um we called community groups, we taught them how to make paper and uh we successfully made give or take as a pilot. This was just we said let's just test it. So we tested it and we did about um three tons of paper um in a very short space of time. So we are currently now in the phase of converting that now into a commercial model.
We are actually in the phase of now commercializing that model. M
um and the paper that we want to be making um will be yes it will on one part it will be for um for for for artisan type paper but we are also looking at making pulp for um tissue papers and and and and

47:25
pulp that you sell on to manufacturers.
Yeah, we sell on to m manufacturers. So we are in the phase right now of commercializing the model.
Okay. Um
and how's that journey been?
Financing has always been and will always be one of the biggest challenges um in any business. Um
and uh we were able to to self finance at the moment
but I believe that you know if if if you're an entrepreneur um you need to have different set of tools.
Yes.
To to to raise capital. Um yes if you can have the capital yourself well and good but in in most industries that I work the payments cycle is quite slow.
So especially in paper if I make the paper it will take me 3 months before I any money from it.

48:18
So I have to have three months capital that I'm sitting on which not really that feasible if I'm going to also put capital assets.
Okay. So we we're looking at potential for partnerships. Um one option is to actually recruit um to go out and get purchase orders, direct purchase orders. And with those purchase orders, we can then convert those into invoice discounting.
Okay. Um if you say let's go and get financing from banks or no well not banks uh from um uh grants or whatever it's the the timeline is no less than 6 months
yes
to get such things. So if you've got the time yes that's okay and they want to see you operational anyway. M
so the option that we are looking at as we speak right now is that option of securing you know we've already done the pilot secure the purchase orders and convert as quickly as possible those purchase orders into deliveries.

49:21
Okay.
Um and it's all about negotiation. And it's all about just trying to get alignment with this manufacturer to sorry with the um with the uh yeah the the the the on the client to just sort of give you a pre-order or pre-inancing. Some of them will agree to pre-inancing sometimes.
Okay.
Um so we're looking at those options um at the moment.
Interesting. Far, um, as we wind down, you being our first non-Kenyan guest, I think that you're the first one we can ask this question.
Yeah.
Um, you've had the privilege to to to you born and raised in in Zimbabwe. You studied in in in the West, you know, and then you've worked all over the continent, but specifically in Kenya, in Tanzania.

50:13
So, what is your personal sense? Yeah. of where we are as a continent and where we are going from an entrepreneurial lens.
Yeah.
What do you see and what is the opportunity that you see as a as a as a parting shot?
Yeah. I mean I've been working now I I don't want to age myself but I've been working more than 20 years
and uh more than 15 of those have been in East Africa and Southern Africa. And the biggest positive is just how fast Africa is growing. I mean, we talk about GDP growth being about 6% in most of African countries. [snorts] But you've got to see it in the lens of businesses. There are many people creating opportunities, creating businesses, and those businesses that they're building. Um, I think the biggest, it's just amazing how many people are

51:12 going into entrepreneurship. I think the biggest challenge we're getting at the moment is just that the businesses are not uh have not got longevity. So, a lot of people are going into business, but they're going into it with a dealer mentality. You know, I'm just going into a deal. I'm just going into um tenderneurs as well and that kind of thing. Um it would be it it it would be good to see generational businesses becoming prominent.
Um and that's a problem. We're not we're not thinking generational in in in in African business as a whole. We think we think I'm I'm running a business. We think transactional. We do our business. Um but if I if I look at Europe, if I look at Middle East, maybe not Middle East, if I look at Europe, I think Africa has got so much growth and so much potential and [clears throat] it's demonstrating it. The youth of today

52:12 have got ideas and they're gutsy. They don't they don't think as much as we used to always be calculating. We used to I mean I do budgets and
fiveyear projections before I even start walking into a project
but the youth of today they think of something they talk to each other and they execute
and it's a beautiful thing but uh I would love to see it becoming a lot more long you know you know a lot more longevity.
Yeah I think that will come.
Yeah I think
I think that's a factor of time. Yeah
because everyone who's trying I think we underestimate the power of trying.
So let people try.
Yeah. Some will succeed, some will fail. But let let that continuous doing and trying be incalcated in the society%

52:57
and in a decade or two from now I think we we are seeing a totally different African landscape.
I think so.
So far it's been a great privilege to learn. I think you you've highlighted to us the importance of data and insights and how it's even going to be more important where we're going.
Yeah. Uh but now I'll now give you a chance to just speak to the audience and tell them where they can find you, where they can find BTL consulting, where they can find my paper karatasi.
Yeah.
Um social media handles, uh websites so that uh should they choose to interact with you, they can know how to do so.
Yeah. So
um our website is uh www. um btl-conulting.com and uh you will find everything uh related to btl consulting um and what we've done and what we are doing in the future. Um we've got um quite a lot of stuff we're doing with consulting uh and executive coaching um that we're assisting uh different clients with. Um, and then my karatasi is uh www.mepa-caratasi.com. Um, and um, you'll see also information about that. Um, currently we're not

54:15 selling any of our paper as we've not yet commercialized, but we do have um, a pipeline that's opening up pro probably in the first quarter of next 2026.
Okay.
Yeah. So, we're quite excited about that. Um and then on my side I've I've I've I've also taken an opportunity to uh write a book uh about um um informal trade.
Okay.
Just giving a bit more context and some of that stuff that we've talked about is within that.
And where's the what is the book and where can you be found?
Um the book is um uh selling to informal markets. It's a blueprint to Africa's informal markets. um if anyone goes to the website they will be able to get a link directly to it and we'll be doing quite a lot of boosting so I'm hoping that uh people will get to see

55:07
excellent
get to see it um in the time
far thank you very much for accepting to be our guest on the African do podcast I think you you encapsulate what we this podcast is about which is telling African entrepreneurial stories from an an African lens and showcasing the opportunity unities as seen by us for us
and hopefully we can be more of us unlocking this opportunity.
Thank you very much for the opportunity and uh yeah all the best to to the podcast.
Thank you very much.
Yeah,
ladies and gentlemen, that was episode 48 of the African Do podcast. We were very privileged to have Farisa as our guest and very interesting discussions. We look forward to seeing you in episode 49. And as we get to the festive season, we wish you all happy holidays and a merry Christmas when you get to it. Thank you very much.