Tedd Josiah — transcript

JokaJok

This transcript is generated automatically by YouTube and has not been checked by a person. It misspells names and mishears words, particularly around Kenyan English and company names, so read it as a guide to the conversation rather than a quotable record. Each timestamp opens the video at that moment.

0:01 [Music] Good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome to episode 19 of the African Do podcast. And today I have uh the pleasure of having a very old friend who I met actually at the very beginning of my um hospitality career fresh from the plane uh when I was working at the carnival. So like to welcome Ted Josiah Josiah. So good to see you, bro. Ted, it's a challenge to introduce him because he's worn many hats. So I'll just we'll flip through them in the course of the podcast, but um when I met you, Ted, you were doing in fact I was thinking last night when did we actually meet for the first time and I remembered when we met you guys were you and David Muredi. Yeah. Audio Vault Limited. Yes. I had just been hired at the carnival as a junior assistant manager and you guys were in a place that we used to call the motorsports clubhouse and you were doing

1:03 rehearsals. Yes. For the Ismarua concert concert launch the launch of the Giddy Giddy Majimi album is Maru which was a brilliant album. and and yeah, that's when I first met because you guys would be jamming the whole day as we were working, serving lunch and the rest, but you were there in this little room preparing for that concert. And that's the first time I think I saw the the the nature of your work ethic and dedication to something because at that time no one was really playing um everyone was doing their thing on playback. No one was doing a live music concert complete with band and band rehearsals. That hadn't quite at all. Yeah. It had been forgotten. That was a forgotten art that um I think the generation before me Yeah. had sort of skipped because in the early late 60s early 70s you had um the the bands Fadil Williams uh you had Fellaki you had um all these um Miriam MBA all

2:11 of those guys and then in the early8s came the disco days bro and disco just killed the life band and And when we came, we were coming in the late '9s, early 2000s. And I thought to myself, yeah, it's good to have playback, but really, we can play these things live. And I had the the pleasure of working with people like Gidoko Kibukosia, who had been my inspiration to go into the music industry. Uh, when I was only 13 years old. Yes. Um I I met um African Heritage at a concert and I literally got goosebumps to a point, you know, you feel like something deeper is speaking to you but you don't know what it is. And I was a nice high school kid, you know, 13 years old. Fast forward 10 years later, he was producing my album. Wow. So let's start maybe at the beginning. Let's start there with Audio Vault. Yeah. And um I have the privilege

3:08 of knowing your family, your brother and your your folks. Yeah. But you for you to take a decision with Audio Vault and I think Audio Volt was the first production house with it was the second but it was the first one that people saw. Okay. Yeah. So for you to take that as a career path. Yeah. Your dad being a doctor kind of. So how did that go down? You decided to It didn't go down. It didn't go down. It did not go down at all. Uh my folks were hoping that again they were coming from the school of thought of you must be a doctor, a lawyer, a computer scientist or something something something you know I work 8 to 5 and here I am this kid who in all honesty even if you gave me all the leakage of the bio biology exam I would still fail. Yeah. Yeah. My mind was constantly programmed on creating stuff, just making stuff. Yeah. And I couldn't stop it. It is it's a part of

4:10 me since I was born, you know, and I thank God for it because uh it's what has kept me going through the years and my folks didn't take it very well that I didn't want to be a doctor or you know chiropractor or my mom was a computer scientist and all of those things. Um but by 10 years after I had gone into the industry, they became my biggest support because they saw came full cycle. Yeah. They saw that this guy, you know what, he's a headstrong and not only is he headstrong, he's actually making an impact in life. So what more do you want from your from your child? Exactly. You know, so they they came around, but it took time. It took time. So audio vault. Yeah. first thing that kind of puts you on the map. Uh you guys start by producing I think. Um how how first of all how do you come together you and David and then what's that journey like? Me and Davey

5:09 first met in about 92 93 through Peter Dera who was a bandmate of mine in the group Heart the gospel group Heart and um David had uh just come back from the UK. He was um obviously doing a lot of DJ work when he was in the UK wanting to dabble in music and uh record label and that kind of stuff. Yeah. And um in a sense I literally convinced him that you are the guy who needs to manage Kenyan musicians and if you don't know that is your calling no now that is your calling really and and he he jumped into it fullheartedly. I mean he's now doing a lot of mentorship programs and those kind of things. Um but him managing people like Hardstone made Hardstone who he is him managing people like Alam Shaka. Okay. him managing uh people like Nikki and and the likes those without his management skills and without his um literally his administrative skills the

6:09 Kenyan music industry wouldn't be what it is. So you are the music guy. You are the I was the I was the nuts and bolts and the creative geek and the guy and he was the admin and the relationships and all that. Okay. Okay. So I I thrive when I'm in a dark room with knobs and faders and keyboards. Yes. Yeah. and and he thrives with the paperwork and um the talking to people and all the administrative stuff. So it it worked. It worked very well. It did. It did. Okay. So you go through, we were talking with Dan Asa and we were talking about we're trying to go through some of the albums that we recall you know and what was it was it called Kenya chapter one or there was something that with Darling P and and and that's that's my album that I recall because I was not in the country when Hudstone was was hitting. So when I come back I then find this

7:03 thing that you guys have done. Yeah. And it had like uh I think 12 tracks. 12 or 13 tracks. And it was quite something. Every track was a was a banger. Yeah. And I remember coming back home and this not the home that I had left when I left the country to go and study and was like wo this scene has changed completely. We are in the club. I left us going to the club like many Kenyans my age. When we were in the club we are R&B, new jack swing soul guys. Then I came back to this place and we're just banging to local hits. Yeah, we we did we did a 360 revolution back then and it was inspired I mean partly in in that we were also exposed to Jimmy Jam, Terry Lewis, uh Teddy Riley, you know, Baby Face. Baby Face was just emerging with Boys to Men and all of those guys and um groups like Soul for Real. And I kept on asking myself as I was uh growing up um why is

8:06 it that we've got two distinct radio stations? One plays Swahili music um and and Ziko Langalanga and those kind of guys and then you had general service that was playing you know uh Dolly Parton and Kenny Rogers and you know gosh sun man And I used to think to myself, does it mean that you have to choose a lane? Why can't you just combine the lane? Why can't you have the best of both worlds? Why can't you have Swahili with R&B? Why can't you have, you know, why can't you mix and match them? Why don't you have a fusion of all these cultures that we've been listening to and Darling P was part of that fusion? You know, you feel the the hip-hop, the R&B, and then all of a sudden these guys rapping in funny dialect and moving and people like Giddy Giddy going into fusion hardcore, people like Kalamasaka going into hip-hop with very street lingo. And I was very intentional with that

9:11 because I felt that we had grown up with two worlds and we needed to create one world that was our world. Not not um music from you know um our fathers but music that we've created. And Swahili service was music from our fathers. That's the stuff our fathers were were listening to. And us guys because we've gone to school and we want to speak English. We're listening to general service. And I'm like I like Kenny Rogers but it's not quite my thing man. you know, I I listen to everything. Yeah, exactly. But to this day, um you know, and like Yeah. Yeah. Um I was more BM. But um we had I felt this country had a generation that wanted to listen to both. Yeah. And if you took both cogs and fused them together, you would create something. And and what tells you that? I I'm I'm sometimes curious, you know, whenever we look back at history, it all looks like 2020 vision, you know,

10:15 when looking backwards, but at the time you you can't have what is it that was tagging at you because you can't have known it will be a success. You know, you are out to try. What was tugging at me is what has always been in my heart of I feel something in my spirit of this makes sense to me and if it if it makes sense to me this thought I have all I have to do is give birth to this thought and make it a tangible item and it'll make sense to other people and most times people really doubt that spiritual aspect of them of something is speaking inside you and telling you if you do this and this and this and this and this it's a no-brainer just go for it and then you start second guessing yourself like um well you know maybe what if it might not go too good and bro I I think I don't have that switch like so you just go for me I just go if it if it

11:18 fails it fails you know and and that that's what it was it was just bro what what could go wrong at the very least. So, Audio Vault was what about 10 years? Audio Vault was um 1998 December to through to 2003. Mhm. And then um I started uh Blue Zebra and I started Blue Zebra because um David had originally said, "Look, I'm going to do this. As soon as it's not fun for me, I'm out. So, just be knowing." That's very clear. Yeah. I want to do stuff that's fun for me and if it's not fun, don't take it personally. I'm I'm walking away. And uh for me uh music has never been that. Music has been that really selfish girlfriend who doesn't want to share, you know. So it was you you are dedicated to the cause. It was the music broke, you know, and as soon as she has you is you you got to go and you got to go where she wants you to go. And um so I couldn't stop. Um I I opened

12:22 up Blue Zebra in 2003. Started working with people like Nazi and wire necessary noise. Uh did Giddy Giddy Majimi's uh next album I did on Bable as well. Worked with people like Dig who was um Swaren B you know the fusion of R&B and Swahili poetry and uh worked with Susan on her albums. Yes. Kisum 100. Kisum 100. Yes. Worked with uh Yunasi. Yes. on both their albums. Worked with a Chiang Aura on the album she won a cor award for and I just kept on going you know um and then I I dabbled into television. I I started working in television. Um simply because again you look at the TV screen and you think to yourself why is it that there's programming for Swahili speakers and there's programming that is western but there's no urban programming for everyone. everyone, you know, because we all speak Shen and we all live these streets. Um, so I did something that was very cutting

13:25 edge um at the time and uh luckily and thankfully uh one of the managers at um at KTN he stumbled upon the tape. Yeah. And he said on a Tuesday, I want this thing on air on Saturday. I had no experience or knowledge of video. editing nothing. He saw a 2inut clip. So I'm in his office trying to explain to him I don't know how to do this and he's like no you're going to have to figure it out in the next 48 hours because we want this show on air and um and what was the show? It was called VP with Mongolo. Yes. D. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. So VP with Mongol and Dig actually when they looked back at the Steman reports after 3 months number one had always been news right across the board. Yes, Steman reports when people looked they knew it was news and then it would be international programming number two number three VP became number one. Wow.

14:26 So again that gut feeling yes I had it why not fuse these two things and uh boom it it worked. So I I started working with um television and then I started asking myself what what more do I have to offer in this world. I don't think I'm just about music or that kind of stuff. I want I want other things and um yeah came the caveat of the politics. Yeah. So now in fact one of the things that when I was thinking about you and your career there's a time when I lose you you you you disappear from the scene. But I was also um it's around the time that I left to start my entrepreneurial career and open Blancos. Yeah, I remember and and then went for about what five six years where I didn't hear you and then I saw you slowly coming back but not the same Ted. So where did you go? Um, between 2006 and about 2015, I had this whole up and down of relearning who I

15:39 am, figuring out what I want to do, um, acquiring new skill sets. Yes. And, uh, a lot of the new skill sets meant also a change of the mindset. Yes. Um, so I've been in music, I've been successful, I've been doing this stuff and it's been working and um, you're pretty good in Africa, but when you get out of Africa, you're absolutely nothing. Nothing. And I remember um, going for a job interview um, and presenting all my work and the guys who were going to hire me, one of them said, "Your work is absolute shit." What? And uh I posed and I thought to myself, I'm about to punch this guy, but I need to be humble. He's younger than me, but I've come here for a job interview, so let me just eat humble guy. And that was the beginning of my unlearning. And where was he? Where was this? This was in London. This was in London. Um so I went I went for um a job

16:44 interview where I also wanted to do a lot of training. So I went to a company called Steel Drum Studios and uh they were doing a lot of animation and uh live action which is uh video production and that kind of stuff. Nothing to do with music. But on the flip side he said but there's something there and we're going to train you and bring that something out. So one year into the training and the work, I start to really now I'm digging deep because I've been told my work is So I want I want I want this guy's compliments. You know what I mean? And I remember a year later he gave me uh my props when I presented a video for the mayor of London and he said, "You see, I told you you could do something." And for me that was that was a magical moment of okay I have actually dug deep into a a new me and I'm discovering different different things I can do and different people I can be and

17:49 and also living in London then I and I I I used to work right off Oxford Circus which is one of the highest retail food foot food traffic areas in the world if not the biggest. Mhm. And I would be on Oxford Circus every single day of my life and I'd be looking at these logos and looking at these brands and entering these malls and looking at these stores, you know, the Zara, the Mangoes, the, you know, Tom Fords and all of these things and I'd be like, how come we don't have an African one? What the heck? There's no African brand here. There's no And this all these things are really literally copypaste, copy paste, copy. But there's nothing here for African. Um but when you look at it, it's Nigerians who are shopping. It's it's East Africans who are shopping and we are making money for these guys. We come all the way from Africa to come and shop there. I said something's wrong,

18:42 man. Why can't we have an African store? I remember that's those are the words I used to say, the African store, the African shop. How come we don't have that? And that idea stuck in my head. Um I went around the world. I went to Nigeria. I was in Belsa. I was in Port Hakot. I was in Abuja. I was in Lagos training people. Steel with the steel drums now. Uh now with a company called uh Tivven Inc. Okay. And what we were doing was setting up television stations. So we would train people on camera work, video editing, set up the TV stuff. Um, equip the station, equip the people, uh, did some work in Cape Town as well. Did did some work in London and it's just training work on on audiovisisual and it got to a point where I was like, bro, I can't live out of a suitcase. The money is good, but I can't live out of a suitcase. No, no, no, no, no. uh

19:40 I'm going to die in these streets and nobody would even know, you know. Um so I left uh that life, the UK for I came back home in 2015 and so 20 from 2006 to 2015 you were London based. I was literally London based that was your most of the time. Yeah, most of the time was London. You would find me in D. when guys were wondering where these guys disappeared to. Oh, there was a rumor that I was playing for a Spanish band, a jazz band on the beach. But, uh, I'm the one who actually started that rumor cuz I didn't want people to know. Yeah. So, I was asked once, "Where are you?" And I said, "I'm playing for a jazz band on the beach in Spain." It beat the miserable life of being told that my work was in London and trying to rediscover myself. So, 2015, you come back. So I come back in 2015 and in 2015 the whole scene has changed. There's a lot of autotune. There's a lot

20:35 of fruity loops. There's no live bands. There's this and that. And I'm thinking to myself, I'm not sure if I want to go back into the music scene. Um I have my studio, but I'm not sure. So I I worked with two artists, Masawi and uh Idi um on their on their debut singles after which I just let them go. Um but also I got into a very serious relationship at that time, had a baby. Um and then her mom passed when she was 3 months old. Yes. So my entire universe, you know, you're trying to rediscover, re-engineer, rebirth yourself. And then all of a sudden, boom, you're slapped with, you know, a huge amount of grief. And I think it was it was I know it was intentional on God's part. because it made me really pause, really pause. And that pause gave me a whole year, 2017, 18, a whole entire year of just trying to figure out what it is that I really want with my life. Not to

21:48 do, but with my life. What is it that you really want with your life? Many times as humans we're like what do you want to do? What do you want to be? No, but what do you want with your life? What's what's the total sum of your life? What are you about? Exactly. It's actually even deeper than what are you about? It's it's what is the total sum of who you will be when your days are ending. M and um we had talked with my late wife about creating a a company and and uh 2 days before she passed we create I created I did a logo for her and she wanted to do fashion and stuff like that. She was going to do just garments um but she had said if we can find leather maybe we can make bags and that stuck with me as well. So the conversation I had had with myself in London of how come we can't create an African brand, fashion brand, luxury brand. Um and then this whole

22:55 conversation of the leather bags started to resonate in my heart and I thought I have no idea about how to make a bag but I have been doing product design and packaging and design. Yeah. So I might as well try and dabble in this. And uh fast forward now we've been Jock Jo has been in existence 5 years and it's it's doing pretty well. So Jo came into being with the pandemic actually just before the pandemic and we thrived during the pandemic really. Um you know one of the things that people were not looking at at the time was the impact of social media. Yes. Everybody was ignoring it and I birthed Jocker Jock intentionally on social media. Social media. Yeah. Jocker Jo all all the R&D research and development and comments and uh the whole fan club and everything was birthed on social media and it's the ladies who would tell me no don't make a bag like that in the comment section. Do

24:05 like this. And I would take you know I would take the critical yeah I would I would take it as feedback and I would you know develop. So there's a bag called the Wendo Tort bag that was birthed specifically by uh a comment of a lady saying you need to make a bag that is structured like so. She didn't give me diagrams or anything just her her feedback of what she would like to put in her bag and that became our highest selling bag. She never bought a bag from us but that became our highest selling bag. Yeah, you know you've you let me let me let me just uh unpack some two topics connecting your two worlds. Yeah. And one of the things that um I am trying to achieve in the restaurant and hospitality space is what you've just described but creating brands that are us that are what I feel you know when when I when I go and have an African meal highend who says we can't have a

25:10 high-end African meal so then h and but sometimes when you when you're in the grind with these things as you're doing them and I don't know if you get this feeling you sometimes I sometimes get the feeling that as you start unpacking it you stumble on so many things that you didn't intend to stumble on you stumble on narratives you know you stumble on on um who who creates what we consume you know and and I'm I'm really glad that we're living in an age where we are seeing all these things being upended and finally the conversation around who's creating for us and this new imag and and and social media as you've touched on has a lot to do with it because it does we can now talk directly to the consumer and even before they buy. Yes. Without a survey or anything they can start to comment on your thing and they've never bought your back and they give you feedback

26:05 immediately, you know. Exactly. Which is very very important. Um you you speak on on on on that whole issue of the pallet. Yes. Yes, I call it the pilot because I I work with sound. So it's it's it's part of the sensory. I work with um feel feel. Everything I'm wearing I'm not wearing underwear today. Yes. And I was very intentional about that because I couldn't find underwear made in Kenya. Oh, really? So everything I'm wearing is 100% Kenyan. Joker joke. Made in Kenya. And I'm proud. Everything. Literally everything. everything. And I want us to get to a point where we're looking at all our sensories and being very intentional with how we move the culture forward. The pallet I think to myself about let's take a slice of Kenya that's not really talked about much. um western and nyanza m we know fish and ugali tilapia there's so much else that's that's all how many more things

27:20 including kumbbe k are available and when you say kbe k people go like you want me to eat what you can eat esago what is the nutritional value of what I've just told you and how much did the ancestors use that as a food source high in protein and the day you taste it, your life changes instantly and your perception of everything changes instantly because not only is it high in protein, it's also high in salt, you know, and you think to yourself, I need to eat more bugs. And it's it's also in the plating and the narrative that we push out. Yeah. Because esgo Wow. I mean even the Nigerians have their own version of the equivalent. They are the equivalent. Um there's so many African dishes and cuisines that we have not. In fact, when you use the word African and cuisine next to it, it feels like you're there's conflict. Yeah, there's conflict. It's exactly like when we use um Joker Jo is

28:27 known as African luxury. And I was very intentional about that because people would say there's nothing luxurious about African. I would say hold my beer. Hold my beer. Hold my beer. I show you. So there should be African cuisine plated in a way that is so intentional and powerful to a point where people want to fly down to Nairobi and experience the food festival, the African food festival. And it's not just okay here's gueri. It is served in a pot. bring your hand, let me serve it for you. But no, no, no. We need to move culture forward. People need to be very dynamic about how they think about their cultures. It cannot culture is not a static form. Culture is a dynamic form. And the problem with Africa is that we keep on we we've we've been given this mindset that culture is that thing from the past. Just respect it as that thing from the past. it has no place in the future.

29:29 Fun fact, let me share with you a fun fact which I don't know if you know uh but on the as we're talking about food um you know what we the two now it's changing uh but when I was growing up the two most popular African greens that we used to eat was kumiki and spinach those were the ones which were everywhere but those are all foreign both are foreign both were imported and you know why why They they were all imported because um in when colonialism came. Yeah. What are traditional African greens? Kund managu terrer you know the whole host of them you know um were weeds in a farming setting so the farmer could not allow you to grow weeds next to cash crops. So they had to give you another green to eat and that's how scuma and spinach came. Not many people know that. I don't think schuma and spinach actually have more nutritional value than they don't. But they were serving a purpose and the

30:42 purpose was these things that you like and eat. Yes. the teraris I can't have them next to the farm because they are going to you know the seeds will carry and then more weeding is required and and so uh there comes the death of the African g I'm really glad it's one of the exciting things that nowadays when I talk to the guys who sell green grossers um they're back they're all back bigger and better than I love them and I actually I cannot remember the last time I had kale or spinach don't in my house and I have greens every day. I just do not. Now, before we turn this into a food podcast, let me go back. You said something about what your late wife late wife said and I want to deviate away from Joker Jo a bit and come back into the supply chain and she said your late wife said if we find good leather maybe we can make some bags. So, let's unpack that. If we find good leather, I

31:44 know you're using Kenyan leather 100% and Kenyan leather is is uh Kenyan leather used to be there was great Kenyan leather in the past. We had a window when there was none, but now it's coming back and guys are talking about top end. So walk us a bit through that journey of sourcing leather locally, quality. I know your quality standards of your bags are really high. So and and insisting that they they use local uh leather. Walk us a bit through that. We have always had great leather in the larger East and Central African region. Always. Even before the colonialist came, we were working with leather. Yes. Even before these guys came, we had figured out how to work with leather because it was part of our garments and it was part of our bags. Yes. This is not a foreign concept to anybody in East and Central Africa. Leather was not a foreign concept. The Trana to this present day have still

32:46 preserved how they make their leather and their garments. And there's also tribes in in in um Tanzania who are doing the same same thing. the ha and we have sort of you know the the again when the colonialists came they came and gave us these robes that were warm and woolen and everything you know the Scottish quilt and all of those things and and and people embraced them thinking well yeah I can buy this thing immediately and wear it as opposed to the whole process of I have to go process a couple of goat hides dry them you know uh process them and then be able to wear them people thought it wasn't so cool So fast forward to when I was having this conversation with my late wife. It was outside um carrier core. Mhm. The carrier core. Mhm. I use that word intentionally. The carrier core were the core that were meant during World War II to help the British soldiers carry bags.

33:47 The carrier core. But they were also taught how to fix boots, fix belts, fix bags, fix items. That is why Karaok still has kundos and all of those things and people don't don't understand that. Now, we were having that conversation outside Karaok and I thought to myself, h I'm sure Kio is not the place where you're going to find leather. You'll find leather offcuts, you know, the remnants, but we need to figure this out. And um after she passed I was having a conversation with somebody and he told me well if you go to Sagana you'll find a tannery on your left side and um if you tell them that I sent you they will open up their doors for you and have a conversation with you. Who's sending you there? Ui some random funi. So I one day went to Sagana and um got there I found this very smelly tannery and I thought to myself, "Oh wow, am I sure I'm going to make bags out of

34:46 this smelly stuff?" And then he walked me deeper inside and I found finished product. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, amazing, unique pieces of leather. And I kept on asking him questions as the manager of this place. Um what do you do with this? how come you're not selling this? And he's saying, "Oh, those are considered rejected." And I'm like, "I can make beautiful items. I'm seeing art. What do you mean reject?" And um after the whole presentation that he had given me, he told me, "I'm going to make you a millionaire. I can see that you really love leather." I laughed it off. I laughed it off. Bought my couple of pieces of leather. Went back, made uh my first bag. It was our safari bag. And um again I was aiming high. The first bag we launched was 37,500 K. So how do you make your first bag boss? You don't you're not a leather funi like you said

35:43 it was a new skill. So where do you find the artisans? Where do you find the people who are now your craftsman? Because your craftsmanship is really good. Um, again working in London, I spent a lot of time in in these fashion houses because at lunch time I was kind of broke. So I would go into Zara and uh, you know, window and and look at how is this thing made and and those things just as an artist they stay in your head and also um, my first training is design, package design, package design and bag design is literally the same thing. Yeah. So I could figure out how these things were made just by looking at them. Now when I I I came back to Nairobi and gave the Fund that that that work, I designed it out for him, told him this is how it's going to be. This is how the straps are going to be and everything. Um the these are the lengths. This is I sketched it all out

36:39 for him. He went and made a bag. I took a photograph of it and uh quantified it to be uh kind of an expensive venture and I thought to myself, well, leather is an expensive venture. Yeah, leather is not a cheap material, so let me put this at um the retail price was 37,500 and um somebody bought it like that and you you're pitching it in on socials. On socials? Yeah, on socials. And people saw me going through the journey on socials. And what happened instantly was as soon as she bought I was like this is proof of concept. There's a market out there. One bug. All we need to do now is run. Now uh it's not all a bed of roses. Of course, never is. Yeah. She was uh just trying to support the spirit. It took us another I would sell maybe a bag every month which was not sustainable at all from a business perspective. But when you're starting out um even if you rush yourself good concepts take a lot

37:50 of time. Yeah. So the first I would say one year was really slow and a learning process. And also I think you have that that period where you're being tested how bad do you want this thing to come to life? How bad do you really want this thing to come to life? And that period is a tough period for any entrepreneur. Tell me about it because uh you're eating into your savings. You're you've got a child going on going on people asking you bro you left music for this. M in fact I have a friend who I remember him saying bro you're going to be eaten up leather is not the industry you want to go into you're going to be eaten up government had already uh financed and sponsored a few young people uh 5 years before me during the Kbaki era and those young people were already moving fast and they had the finances you know and here I am I'm just coming

38:54 with my little, you know, uh dream and ambition and hope and zero cash that I'm going to something is going to give way. Um yeah, it's it's not an easy journey, bro. So, here one passes. Yeah. And um when do you now start seeing traction um in both diversity of products and in sales of the products that you produce? Year two is where we started to feel because we started getting feedback. Why are you doing travel bags only? Are you a travel bag company or are you a bag company? And you know, you start asking yourself, wait a minute, yeah, that makes sense. I'm not a travel bag company. M I'm a bag company. Um so what would you like? And you ask people, you know, what would you like to see from us? And what would you like to feel? And and and people start telling you, well, we'd like bags like this, bags like that, bags like that, bags that are have

40:00 this kind of function, uh laptop bags. Um again, somebody our laptop bag is one of the highest selling laptop bags in Kenya. And the question that I had asked that I had been asked when that was birthed was how come you don't have a laptop bag. I thought to myself, ah actually the last time I had a laptop bag, that laptop bag was so flimsy that it broke my laptop because it fell out. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought, wait a minute, let me just use this package design, reverse engineer this bag. Yeah. So that from a functionality perspective, this bag is shockproof and then I'll put it in the market. So it took us about 6 months to develop that bag. And as soon as it came out, it started moving like mad because people were like now my laptop is secure, but not only is it secure, I have a very good-look bag. It looks bad. It looks good. Yeah. And uh then we

41:02 started diversifying in color. Um and color also opened up with your same leather supplier. Uh no. Um bro, the leather industry is very it's a tough industry. Um you are asking about supply chain. Yes. There's something I glossed over which is uh you can have a great leather supplier this year and next year they can have shut shop. Really? And if they shut shop, you are shafted in ways, more ways than you know. Because let's say you have three colors you get from one tannery and you get those three colors every single week. Three colors of leather. You get them every single week and then the tannery tells you we've shut that catalog is dead and you've already prepared it. The catalog is dead. And now people have this online. Oh, do you have this bag? Do you have this bag? Do you have this bag? And you're like, um, well, no. Oh, the

41:58 tannery shut down. Can I offer you another? No, I want that in that color. Yes. Uh, so what we have done through the years is we've we now work with tanneries that we give our designs, our colors and also we work long term with long-term agreements with how many tinaries now? Uh, we're working with two tanneries now. Okay. Um, one in Adis, one in Kenya. M long-term agreements of we will only take your leather if you enable you actually guarantee us that this time next year it'll be there. It'll be there at the same consistency. We don't want any change of consistency or anything because uh we want to be able to consistently grow. If we're killing a color, we will let you know we are killing this color and we're moving to that color. But we'll sit down with you, develop the colors, develop the prints, develop the texture, develop the weight and gauge, and then after that

42:59 move it. So, how many colors are first of all, how many how how deep is your catalog? How many product lines do you have? We have over 80 bags right now. 80 bags. 80 different bags. Variety of colors. We have over 12 different colors. Wow. um which is something that uh most companies were afraid of. When I started out, I would walk into a leather bag company and I would find black, brown, and I'd be like, "But we're African." Africans love color. How come you And then I realized that most of the leather companies were targeting the tourists. Yes. Now, again, that thing that I had as a child, I want to see myself. I want to see myself. I want a bag that I want to carry that doesn't look to see it looks like me. Do you understand? I hear you. And and a lot of times people forget that. And then on top of that, you've just said when you came back from

43:58 your studies abroad, obviously when you're abroad, you experienced a different lifestyle. You experienced different wants, desires, out outlook to towards life. And then you come back as a traveled young African and you have a discerning pallet, discerning ear, discerning eye, discerning nose. Not that we don't have discerning noses because we don't travel, but you know, the more you're a traveled human, the more you want things that sort of like make you stand apart. And then extrapolate that to this thing here. Yeah. Because now people don't have to hop into a plane to travel. Exactly. You know, one of the challenges that um we've been talking about concerts, live concerts. People are comparing. Yes. They've never left the country, but they're like, "Yes." Why was Ba Boy, if you're coming, Ba Boy is coming to Nairobi. It better look like the B boy of London. Why you? And so

45:01 that again extrapolates. Exactly. And so I believe that now is the time to build African brands and and and I call them African brands built to an in international standard that are proudly African and are exportable. No truer words ring in this day and time. Yeah. I tell you why. If you look at the population of the African globally, even if you try and Google that, you won't get it. It's way past two billion. Yeah. If it's way past 2 billion and you get 1% 1% of the African to buy your broen made out of bamboo from the Congo forest. Yes. At a dollar. How much money have you made? $20 million. Yeah, we are capable of making not only beautiful African brands, but you know that thing of that the IMF and everybody likes talking about of poverty alleviation. Yeah. Don't alleviate my poverty, bro. Help me create wealth. Yes. I want to be a wealth creator and then disperse

46:22 wealth. Yes. alleviate poverties. Like I've taken one step above from Why is why is your bar so low, bro? No, no, no, no, no. We want these brands to create so much wealth on this continent that our young people do not want to leave this continent and go and suffer winters abroad when they don't have to. No, no, no. The winter is over. We did our second world war, first world war. Our grandfathers died there. the uh we did our time working in old people's homes there. You work for your old people as we want to work for our old people here right here in Africa. Please, we also have grandmothers and grandfathers we want to take care of. We don't want to work with your grandmothers and grandfathers and then all of a sudden my grandfather has died and I'm coming for the funeral and wishing I had spent more time with them. No, it doesn't make

47:17 sense, bro. Yeah. So, Joker Jo African. What's the the the the right name? Joker Jo African luxury leather. No, just African luxury because I am going to You're going to double I can see now you have a leather jacket there. So, that that's okay. So, maybe let's talk about where do you see this going? Yeah. Where where do you see this going? Do you see yourself um I know you your workshop where you make the bags is the same place where you have a shop where you sell the bags but what do you see yourself doing there are many routes to take with retail you know uh do you see yourself going into real estate uh or do you see yourself going into partnerships where will we find uh do you see yourself becoming an entirely online brand what what's what's the future for uh Joker Jo African luxury you know um you've you've uh pinpointed one word that I keep on saying Africans aren't

48:16 playing in and it's retail. Africans aren't playing in retail. Now, everybody thinks, "Let me make my money here and then go and put it in real estate." Yeah, that's a good thing. But, um, did you know that Zara is one of the most Yeah. Yeah. As is McDonald's. Do you know real estate players in the in the globe? Yeah. LV is uh making as much money as real estate. You know what I mean? And um Y people don't understand the get your whole manufacturing and supply chain right and work in the retail space and watch the money come. It is just that simple. Get your manufacturing supply chain right. Make sure you're supplying your your manufacturing from Africa and developing all your stuff in Africa as much as possible and developing the skill set in Africa as much as possible and see the retail space just open up for you because the African is becoming so

49:17 discerning that there will come a time people will ask was that underwear made in Kenya? I don't want to buy it if it's not made in Kenya. I only wear African cotton. Yeah, please. Made in Africa. Do you know what I mean? There's coming at that time and we have to be at the forefront of all of that. If they say that Africa is the new emerging market, that Africa is growing at three times the speed at which other continents are growing, that Africa has the largest population of young people. What the hell are we doing sitting on our hands and naval gazing for? And then what what what I find interesting is that um tech has enabled us to uh short circuit the length of that journey. Yes. Yeah. Um and I like to use the mobile uh phone as an example. Yes. So by the time we got to by the time we got to uh um the mobile phone was coming to Kenya Yeah. There were

50:26 300,000 landlines in the entire country. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Landlines don't even exist today. I don't I don't I don't know a place where 020 is a thing, but landlines are are all but defunct. But the mobile is another story. Now, most westernized markets went through evenized markets went through um uh landlines and then gradually into proliferation of landlines all over and then the mobile was a slow takeoff. Mhm. Because everyone had a phone at home. Mhm. Mhm. But for most African countries that the the mobile phone was such a rise because we were coming from zero. You know, I remember those days your KPTC application could sit there for for for, you know, 6 months. You're waiting for your landline to come and you can't get it. Now, I can walk out of here and pick a SIM card and buy a phone and I'm good to go. Keep it moving. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we can use this technology. I I I

51:35 love that you're talking about that your your brand, you're the first guest I've had who's grown his brand off social media, you know, and and has started and is continuing uh that there's there's others who are using the data and uh analyzing the data, but you starting your brand that but will we see shops will we see Joker jock uh shops on Kinata Avenue and in no nom Mhm. Um and I say no vehemently because um again think ahead. Mhm. If you're using the data and analyzing the data, what is it telling you? The footprint in shopping malls is dropping. Is dropping. Yeah. If the footprint in shopping malls is dropping, why are you setting up a store in a shopping mall, a place that is becoming a dinosaur? M some shopping malls are being converted to apartment blocks in the US. Yeah, for me that was a wakeup call when you see Richard Branson shut down all of Virgin

52:43 Records, all five floors and all physical stores. Know this, the guy has seen ahead. Follow the leader, bro. M and um what what is happening now is people are going for more boutique shopping experiences where I can actually call you, you will reserve for me an appointment, you will serve me with some nice teas and wines and you know uh you will introduce me to Kenyan tea. You'll introduce me to Kenyan coffee. You'll introduce me to another, you know, Kenyan product. and all the while you haven't even sold me a bag yet. I'm just having a chitchat with you. So, it's a more relaxed experiential shopping experience. And that is what I've decided to do. So, when you come to our experiential store, you get to mingle with the the the artisans who are making your bags. You get if you want to cut the bag, you can cut the bag. Um, if you want to spend time, surf the net, have some Kenyan

53:48 coffee from our farm. have some tea, uh, enjoy the atmosphere and, um, wait on your bag, you can wait on it. Or if you want to get something straight from the store, you get it. But you have an experience where you say to yourself, I know the team who worked on this. I feel involved in this whole process. and and I it wasn't one of those tedious things of oh I had to go to a shopping mall then I had to look for parking and then my car got scratched when I was parking and then now I'm in the mall. that's what we should expect to see more for me that that so I keep on thinking about the the the touch points or the pain points for people and thinking how can we do this slightly better okay so that we move it from just a store to an experience okay it it just has to be like that be interesting to see how that pans out you see now one of one of the

54:49 conversations that um I'm really eagerly waiting to have with you is how we will make that dream of ours come alive where the pallet that one will that one will have the senses that one will have and the touch that that one I can guarantee you we're going to have that conversation because that's that's that's where the magic happens you know excellent Ted you know you've first of all this conversation on a personal note first of all let me just give you kudos for the journey that you have taken and and and for not being afraid to try. I think one of the things that we should inculcate in current and future African entrepreneurs is just get a seat at the table. Bro, I'm I'm going to say this and I'm going to say it with um all humility and I will use myself. Yes. Not you. Will I fail? Hell yes. Will I take pride in my failure? Not always, because

55:53 nobody likes to fail. Yeah. But when you're going through the journey of success, you're going to have a whole host of bags of failures. And I've had bags of failures. Bags of failures. But you know what those failures are? Yeah. There are experiences of how not to do it. Um, you pick up also what I should have done better. Yes. And you pick up, oh, that was a good idea, but the timing was off. Yes. And and you pick up all these notes. Yes. And that's what develops success. Success is developed from notes of failure. So I take pride in my failure. Do you know what I mean? And young entrepreneurs need to just don't think to yourself, oh, I failed so I give up. No, no. Take notes. Keep moving. So yeah, mine mine is to say, wow, you know, we've we've talked about music. You tried it. You did it. Uh but you're not afraid to reinvent. You're not afraid to change. You're not afraid to

56:56 try. And now you're doing leather. And one of the things that I enjoy about your leather journey is you really do immerse us even on social media on the thinking behind the bag, on the feel of the bag. And what I like most is that you're curating a uniquely African narrative on African terms, you know, and and you're you're not taking it from a right or wrong perspective. You're saying, "Listen, we're going to make bags that we need and they are going to be for us. We are not chasing away the tourists. If you have if you happen to come and like the bag and want it, great. But uh we need to move away from this thing of where um the bag was designed for a tourist even that so much so that the local doesn't want to carry it because it look tourist you know. You bro um the tourist isn't the end all be all. The tourist is part of our culture and part of our narrative

57:55 because we are a tourist destination. Yes. However, all 60 odd million Kenyans who are here Yeah. the Everybody must carry a bag. Yeah. Everybody must carry a bag. People don't think about that. Everybody Everybody must carry a bag. Yeah. To school, to work, to college, to the market, to the weekend. Um, so there is such a huge market, but the problem is who's your target audience? Do you think that the African has no money? And if you think the African has no money, so you're not going to make for them an item. I'm going to remind you very quickly that you are the African. Yeah. Don't say you have no money. I hate that thinking, my brother, because the African has wealth. They're not tapping into the wealth and they keep on thinking to themselves, the African has no money, so I'm not going to make this thing for the African. Yeah. So then how are you going to have

59:06 money if you're an African and the African has no money? Do you know what I mean? It's it's a it's a you're eating yourself and you're speaking death into yourself. True. And words have power. The words truly have power. So, so my mindset is you know what um I may not have money right now but I have a world of wealth and I am going to make that money. Watch me. Totally. Excellent. Wow. Uh the hour has flown by really fast. Ted, always a pleasure. Ladies and gentlemen, Jo African Luxury. You should go see follow them first on social media. See what they're doing. They're doing phenomenal phenomenal work. And uh now that we the African do podcast has started to um recruit wider African listenership um also check them out and see and order the bags whether you're in Nigeria. I'm sure they can figure a way to get them to you or Uganda or

1:00:00 Tanzania. They're doing phenomenal phenomenal work. So Ted Jos, thank you very much for being guest number 19 on the African Do podcast and we look forward to continuing to see your journey and where it takes you. Asante, thanks for having me. Yep. [Music]